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Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by mempko on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @12:15PM (#20286356)
Markets are most certainly top down. Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money. In fact markets are explicitly created by governments.

Even within a market there is top down planning. What gets produced is decided by makers who use the feedback of the market to change what they make. The consumers usually have no say about what gets made and how it's made outside the narrow, low information way of the spot trade.

In othet words, people would not have created markets sans their explicit imposition by states. They are not a bottom up structure because no sane person would participate in them if they didn't have to.

Prior to markets were webs of debt relations. See 'Debt the first 5000 years' by David Graeber.

Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by nybble41 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @03:34PM (#20288345)
> Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money.

Both money and markets predate the nation-state.

Markets are just people trading with each other. You get that naturally in any society with a concept of private property. People participate in them because the alternative is producing everything themselves and no one has the necessary skills to produce everything they might want. Money similarly develops on its own once the market grows complex enough to make the barter system inconvenient and people begin to practice indirect exchange with small set of universally marketable goods rather than trading directly for items they intend to use themselves.

Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by mempko on Thursday June 27, 2019 @05:06PM (#20298755)
That isn't the alternative. The alternative is people get in debt with each other, which is what happened historically. People simply didn't spot trade with their neighbors. The spot trade is a property of state created markets.
Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by nybble41 on Thursday June 27, 2019 @09:59PM (#20300850)
Trading in debt isn't an alternative to markets, it's a market with debt as the currency. Regardless, the "spot trade" as you put it is also older than nation-states, not something they created.
Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by mempko on Saturday June 29, 2019 @08:28PM (#20315683)
I good book I suggest is Debt the First 5000 Years by David Graeber. It will blow your mind.
Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by nybble41 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:22AM (#20409320)
I've seen it, and didn't find it very convincing. Graeber presents some interesting anecdotes regarding selected ancient social conventions, which may or may not be accurate[1], but—in my opinion—even taken at face value they don't really support his conclusions regarding the nature of debt. Perhaps the book would seem more compelling to someone who already shares the author's worldview.

[1] https://www.bradford-delong.com/2014/12/2014-11-24-mo-ann-le...

Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by Lapsed on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @06:38PM (#20289984)
>Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money

That's not true at all, in many cases markets exist in spite of nation states (think silk road and every other black market).

Re:Life is fractal, but markets are square by mempko on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @07:15PM (#20290270)
All of those came about after money, taxes, and state created markets came about. They are part of the whole. If you get rid of the state, the black markets will go away because taxes and money will go away.