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Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by keanebean86 on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:34AM (#20183326)
It's a little scary seeing that pretty much every US plant was built in the 60s-70s. I know Nuclear has been controversial for a long time but 50 years is a little ridiculous.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by glenneroo on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:45AM (#20183904)
What's even more scary is the "new" Soviet-style plant just recently "finished" after 34 years in Slovakia[0]. Whistle-blowers have released photo evidence[1] showing major structural deficiencies. It was originally planned to come online this in June but because of pressure from the Austrian government has been thankfully pushed back. For the record I'm not against nuclear, aside from worrying about things like waste-management and outdated reactor designs, but overall they provide clean energy to a lot of people.

[0]: https://www.dw.com/en/slovakia-delays-nuclear-plant-expansio...

[1]: Sorry the video is in German, but it does contain some illustrations and photos if you fast forward: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAhPZ_MDZE4

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by canada_dry on Friday June 14, 2019 @01:09PM (#20184619)
> What's even more scary is the "new" Soviet-style plant

I'd also suggest that the track record China has for corrupt/unsafe construction (e.g. https://chinaeconomicreview.com/china-housing-shoddy-buildin...) makes them the elephant-in-the-room as far as safety concerns go - especially considering how quickly they're springing up.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by neuland on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:47AM (#20183436)
What is preventing new nuclear power plants from being built? Is it just fear/local opposition, or is there some regulatory or financial reason that new plants aren't being proposed?
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by timerol on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:59AM (#20183531)
I am under the impression that it's regulatory. Specifically, regulations adding time to get plants permitted and constructed. If you look at the graph of new nuclear power plants coming online, only look at the US, and squint just a little, it looks like the time of construction in the US starts growing right after Three Mile Island, and doesn't stop until any potential return is so far in the future that new plants stop being built.

http://www.carbonbrief.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/annual...

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by neuland on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:21AM (#20183700)
This is a cool chart. So, there are still reactors getting built in other parts of the world, albeit fewer than in 70's and 80's.

If it's regulatory, I'm surprised that more climate focused candidates don't campaign on streamlining regulations to make it possible for more plants to get built. It's essentially zero cost in comparison to other climate efforts that will cost billions / trillions in re-investment.

I don't know a lot about renewables or energy production, but my understanding is that solar and wind are not good for base load unless there's a big improvement in storage technology (either batteries or some physical setup like the pair of lakes in West Virginia where they pump water around). So, nuclear is something we can do now that we know works. And since all these plants are at the end of their life, we can get a much more realistic picture of the total cost of ownership, instead of projections about what the produced power would cost.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by reaperducer on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:38AM (#20183845)
So, there are still reactors getting built in other parts of the world

The map shows three currently under construction in the United States, which is more than any other country with under a billion people.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by waiseristy on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:54PM (#20184470)
The chart is misleading, 1 of those bubbles was canceled in 2017 (SUMMER 2-3). The other started in the 80's, got canceled, and then picked up again a few years back. The third is brand new
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by pjc50 on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:41AM (#20183874)
Deregulation is free until something goes wrong. The estimated $187bn cleanup cost of Fukushima is certainly very far from free.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by cronix on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:02PM (#20184054)
You don't even need to get to the point of a meltdown to be very expensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Nuclear_Power_Plant
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by roenxi on Friday June 14, 2019 @06:32PM (#20187209)
The approximate cause of Fukushima was a once-in-a-generation tsunami that exceeded the design constraints that the plant was built under.

Whatever did go wrong at Fukushima wasn't deregulation. That sort of mistake can creep through in even an extremely well regulated environment.

Also, the cost of the cleanup from the Tohoku earthquake that was linked to the tsunami was something like 300 billon; so maybe the fact that they had a design flaw in their nuclear plant maybe doubled the cleanup depending on what the figures on Wikipedia already factor the Fukushima clean up costs in.

Doubling the cost of something is significant, but for an event of that rarity not really a deregulation concern. If you told me that there was a risk of a city being leveled by a tsunami and there was a chance my taxes rising by, say, an unnecessary 10% for 12 months I might (depending on which city) squint at you in confusion about why the 10% was a problem. I've payed 1% disaster levies in my lifetime.

A slight chance of a moderate-in-context one off cost due to a series of unlikely coincidences just doesn't really rate as a major regulatory risk to me. I'd trust the regulators to deal with it for next time as part of their normal process. We have literally had to scour the globe for a decade to find an example where it matters.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by merpnderp on Friday June 14, 2019 @02:26PM (#20185385)
Deregulation? Is there an industry more heavily regulated in Japan than the nuclear industry?
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by epistasis on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:52AM (#20183967)
Your plot is missing one key thing: are projects plotted at their start or date. In either case, I think that it looks like the delays started pre-TMI.

Other plots that I have seen show new additions slowing long before TMI.

Each pre-TMI project was managed with a different level of skill, or with better rolls of the dice on timing, and those that completed quickly were profitable, and the those that had long delays had huge cost overruns due to massive capital outlays and interest payments without any revenue to back it.

And another reason that I don't think we can blame regulation: look at Vogtle and Summer. You have to dig really really really far into backwaters of blogs before you can even find somebody saying "this regulatory process caused us to be delayed," and even those complaints are vague.

It's not regulation, it's the industry.

We can look elsewhere in different regulatory environments too: UK, France, Poland, all have the same huge difficulties we do when constructing nuclear. The places that seem to have fewer difficulties still have difficulties. China has long delays, that would still cause investors to lose money in the US. South Korea had been on a tear of seemingly good construction, but it turns out that the contracting process was rife with corruption and now there are worries that unqualified parts are stuck deep in reactors that are supposed to run for 60 years.

If there is a regulatory delay on these projects, I'm not sure that there's any sort of appropriate regulatory structure that would make them work. And you can tell because the industry insiders that complain about regulation don't have any fixes in mind.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by stevetodd on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:43PM (#20184383)
They’ve been trying to get started on one in Utah, though it’s been hung up a few years in court with environmentalists fighting about the water usage.

See “Public Reaction” in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Castle_Project

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by cameldrv on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:10PM (#20184123)
It's complex construction projects in general. Regulation is a significant piece. We have a lot more worker safety, public safety, and environmental regulations. On the other hand, we also have loads more construction technology.

One thing no one ever talks about is environmental lead exposure. Just like it appears to have caused a huge crime spike, by impairing executive function, I think it may have impaired society's ability to manage complex projects.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by jartelt on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:57AM (#20183513)
No one wants to make the investment to build a plant that costs several billion dollars and will take up to 10 years to build. There have been attempts to build new plants in the US but the cost over runs have been huge. Rate payers are fed up with billion dollar cost increases.

Plus, many of the plants that are currently operating in the states are losing money because their electricity is too costly. We have had a series of nuclear plant bailouts in the past few years. If you can't make money after the construction costs have already be amortized, how can you make money on a new plant?

It's just a very poor financial investment to build a large reactor in the states (unless something changes).

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by Retric on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:04AM (#20183577)
Nuclear power is not cost competitive. Reasonably safe nuclear power plants require a lot of concrete and steel. A highly trained workforce and significant security 24/7. Quite a bit of land with access to water and or the construction of a huge cooling tower(s). Past all this you need a massive insurance policy or state backing in case something major goes wrong.

Without subsidies it’s a money losing proposition even if you can sell all power produced at a good rate. However, with renewables regularly pushing down the value of electricity for much of the day things have gotten even worse.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by ImprovedSilence on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:13AM (#20183646)
Or states are giving tax breaks to fracking (natural gas) companies in the name of “job creation”, only helping to lower the cost of electricity produced from natural gas. Basically we are subsidizing non-renewalable energy sources.... Also regulation drives a big chunk of the cost of nuclear. It’s not the cement and labor that drives the cost here...
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by roenxi on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:29AM (#20183765)
I've observed a bit of an irony there - the fossil fuel industries generate political protection for themselves because of all the jobs they generate.

Nuclear is an order or two more efficient (you need a fraction of the mines, and a fraction of the work to keep the whole technology stack running). In practice this seems to mean that nuclear power doesn't have much of a lobby in favor of it even if it is established as an industry.

In Australia the coal lobby is a pretty noticeable force in two states and arguably influenced the last election. If we were 100% nuclear instead there wouldn't be enough people in the industry to make a political difference.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by Retric on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:18AM (#20183680)
Globally the same amount of Nuclear power was produced in 2017 as 2002. That has little to do with local regulations and a lot to do with basic economics. As China etc have very different approaches to regulation.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by namdnay on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:50PM (#20184449)
While this is true, it’s only because non renewable fuel is “subsidized” by not being penalized on the massive negative externalities it creates. If a reasonable price for carbon is set, nuclear emerges as a very strong temporary complement to renewable sources
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by aqme28 on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:27PM (#20184266)
It's this 100%. People like to blame the regulations, but there's not beating the economics.

It's incredibly expensive and takes a decade to start collecting revenue. In that time, renewables could emerge as a winner.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by jhallenworld on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:58AM (#20183524)
In the US, the answer is simple: the financial ruin from Three Mile Island. The reactor was brand new when it had the meltdown, so was a total loss and required billions to clean up. Who wants that risk?
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by number6 on Saturday June 15, 2019 @02:54AM (#20188754)
I guess most people dont remember Three Mile Island - but that's why no one build a Nuclear power plant after that incident. Regulations became stricter and the risks of lawsuits... you can imagen...
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by cjslep on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:57AM (#20183517)
Low energy prices.

Of the ones that are being built have caused an epic cascade of business failures from construction companies to Westinghouse (who was the leading reactor core design company in the US, not even a construction company).

As I understand it the USA has had a glut of skilled construction labor, all the expert laborers from the 70's never really had a chance to pass down their trade during the nuclear glut of the 80's - 00's

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by irrational on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:23AM (#20183723)
Do you mean glut (an excessive quantity)? Or are you thinking of gut (to destroy the essential power or effectiveness of)?
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by cjslep on Friday June 14, 2019 @06:58PM (#20187347)
The first: no nuclear power plants to build, and an abundance of skilled and experienced blue collar labor available (but dwindling as time progressed).
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by ekianjo on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:54AM (#20183489)
Probably political will is lacking the most. Almost nobody campaigns for building more nuclear plants.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by imtringued on Saturday June 15, 2019 @04:26AM (#20188947)
Have you been living under a rock? There is no shortage of pro nuclear campaigns. The reason nuclear platns don't get built is that they are too expensive to build. Every pro argument is built around theoretical reactor designs that haven't been built yet. Building an old design is expensive, building a new design is even more expensive.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by pytester on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:01AM (#20183544)
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by jakespracher on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:48AM (#20183925)
It’s a shame new ones can’t be built! New reactor designs are far more efficient and safe. There are designs you could leave unattended with no power indefinitely and they would never melt down

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612940/the-new-safer-nucl...

The problem is we can’t build them cost effectively. Toshiba had to sell it’s 18 billion memory chip business to cover the losses of its nuclear division.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toshiba-accounting-westin... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toshiba-accounting-westin...

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by Circuits on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:43AM (#20183890)
It would cost too much money.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by tptacek on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:42PM (#20184379)
Looking around Illinois I see most of the "connected to grid" dates in the mid-late 80s, which I presume represents the point at which construction ended. The mid-80s isn't that long ago for core infrastructure.

Reading the Wikipedia pages for these plants, many are slated to be decommissioned and some have uncertain futures due to economics; natural gas appears to be outcompeting nuclear in Illinois. Which goes towards explaining why there aren't new plants being built: they're hugely expensive and are not reliably profitable.

Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by pvg on Friday June 14, 2019 @04:50PM (#20186567)
The economic projections were probably always too optimistic but nuclear power also became politically much more difficult. "Sitting US president has to personally show up at the site of an ongoing nuclear accident and it's not even his first ongoing nuclear accident rodeo" is not, as we now say, a great look.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by tptacek on Friday June 14, 2019 @04:54PM (#20186601)
I'm sure that's true, but am noting that in Illinois the competitive disadvantage nuclear has against gas has the state actively subsidizing some unprofitable nuclear plants just as (I assume?) a jobs thing. Exelon doesn't seem to be pushing that hard to keep plants it already owns online.
Re:Map of the World's Nuclear Power Plants by pvg on Friday June 14, 2019 @07:33PM (#20187513)
Right, I just mean the politics, technology and economics interact particularly strongly with nuclear energy. Illinois is, like, the France of US state nuclear energy production but the actual France makes money exporting nuclear-generated electricity.