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Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by nabla9 on Thursday June 06, 2019 @05:38AM (#20112938)
This makes absolutely no sense. I'm almost certain that Square lawyers fucked up big time.

They looked at the AGPL and completely misunderstood the context. There is no way in hell anyone can interpret AGPL in a way that makes Square responsible for any license violations their customers make selling software.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by resoluteteeth on Thursday June 06, 2019 @10:36AM (#20114922)
I think this is about including AGPL code in a website that you have hosted by Square. They are probably worried that if AGPL code is included, this will result in Square sending it to browsers together along with their own proprietary code, which could be interpreted as an AGPL violation by Square.

Honestly they are probably correct to be worried about this because it's pretty unclear whether or not it would be covered. At the very least, by making it against the TOS it is clear that it's the users fault not theirs if there is a violation.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by LinuxBender on Thursday June 06, 2019 @11:07AM (#20115261)
We have the same issue at my workplace. Legal won't let us near anything AGPL in our projects for those reasons.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by rmc on Friday June 07, 2019 @02:44AM (#20122196)
Google has a similar policy: https://opensource.google.com/docs/using/agpl-policy/

This is a great advantage of the AGPL IMO. You can release your free software/open source code, and big tech companies won't use your code and make lots of money.

Some companies tried to relicence their code to some 'source available'/'non commerical' licence because they didn't like the MIT's lack of conditions. AGPL could have helped.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by mjevans on Thursday June 06, 2019 @05:07PM (#20119219)
I am not a lawyer - However my own take on the AGPL is that if there's an external tool, an entirely separate process that is open source and does things, then as long as that source code is published and public a user is OK to use AGPL things.

As an example, let's say that I have a game. That game happens to want to have a way of rendering some HTML content for printing / making a PDF. It's OK to ship an open source thing with your game, like a hypothetical FrozenFluff web-browser licensed in AGPL. There are two distinct entities there: a FF binary that gets called with a file to render (which is AGPL and an AGPL processed result that is under the copyright of whomever's material was rendered) and another distinct binary the GameX that happened to call an external process.

The line to cross there is that the AGPL stuff can't be linked against your own program. I'm even more unsure how a module might or might not be licensed. I think since that's an addin then the code for the module (including headers) would have to be AGPL compatible and released, but that the rest could probably be closed.

This line is less clear when it comes to websites however. I think the best equivalent would be to make a wrapper interface that is AGPL licensed, published, and links to/calls the AGPL software. It should have a distinct URL. That URL might only be on the localhost (for security) and would hand back whatever results exist. The proprietary interface could talk to that URL and get results.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by braythwayt on Thursday June 06, 2019 @07:15PM (#20120164)
> I am not a lawyer - However my own take on the AGPL is that...

I am also not a lawyer, however my take on many legal things is that it doesn't matter what my take is, or even if courts will agree with my take, what matters is whether the benefit is worth the hassle if I end up needing a lawyer to deal with it.

Even if you "win," the engagement with lawyers can cost you so much that it becomes a pyrrhic victory, and the amount of time required to deal with certain legal squabbles is astounding.

So sometimes, the right thing to do is to shy clear of anything that carries with it some risk of legal potholes.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by woah on Thursday June 06, 2019 @03:45PM (#20118322)
That is the intent of the AGPL, right? Presumably if there was something under AGPL that was good enough, your company would open source everything so they could use it.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by Drdrdrq on Thursday June 06, 2019 @03:56PM (#20118441)
Or pay commercial license, thus supporting the project.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by LinuxBender on Thursday June 06, 2019 @04:35PM (#20118868)
My limited understanding is that it gets substantially more complicated than that, as it pertains to 3rd party liabilities, obligations and what not. I am not a lawyer so I am not entirely sure what risks they are avoiding. Maybe it really is all about money. I just know they won't budge.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by flukus on Friday June 07, 2019 @03:35AM (#20122413)
The reaction to the AGPL seems to almost mirror the reaction to the GPL 20 years ago, so many companies were afraid of running anything GPL'd then but they got over it eventually. I think the same will happen with the AGPL, cloud providers will probably be the MS of this era, they'll be the last to accept it.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by bubblethink on Thursday June 06, 2019 @05:44AM (#20112971)
And even if there were liability concerns due to copyleft or other clauses in AGPL, singling out AGPL makes no sense. If they want to avoid copyleft, it should be better phrased like so.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by tzs on Thursday June 06, 2019 @03:34PM (#20118216)
Note: I've not looked into the details of what square is doing. This comment is on AGPL in general compared to other licenses.

It does make some sense to see AGPL singled out, because it is different from most other free and open source licenses in one major way.

Almost all other free and open source licenses only require you to distribute modified source code of a derivative work you've made if you distribute that derivative work.

If I take code under those licenses, modify it, link it with my own code, and just run the resulting derivative work on my computer, they do not require me to distribute those modifications or my code, no matter what I'm using the program for, or where from, who from, or how I get its input, or what I do with, where I send, or who I give its output.

Not so with AGPL. With AGPL, the requirement to distribute derivative works can be triggered by code running entirely on my computer if it gets its input from and sends its output to people over a network.

That's a huge difference from prior free and open source licenses.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by chmarr on Thursday June 06, 2019 @01:22PM (#20116747)
From the very specificity of the restriction, I gather that they're not copyleft-adverse. They're "Don't upload stuff that risks us being forced to divulge our closed-source code.". Without the prohibition, even if a user of the service included some AGPL libraries without Square's knowledge, a cunning lawyer could argue that Square was complicit in distributing this code to end-users and thus liable. The prohibition makes that argument difficult.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by eesmith on Thursday June 06, 2019 @02:47PM (#20117702)
A cunning lawyer could argue anything. But, when did Square ever agree to the copyright license? Who did the actual copyright infringement?

And AGPL isn't the only "must publish all your server's source code" license available, so to prohibition is too specific if that's the actual reason.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by MaulingMonkey on Thursday June 06, 2019 @03:23PM (#20118115)
Square is bound by copyright law just as much as anyone else. Agreeing to that license is the only thing giving them permission to redistribute it in the first place.

This is why we have the DMCA safe harbor provisions - it'd be incredibly easy to be on the hook for copyright infringement as a company hosting any user content otherwise. Those safe harbor provisions aren't a blank check to knowingly commit wanton copyright infringement however, as can be seen with all the legal wrangling over Megaupload, as an example [1].

Square knows about the AGPL, knows they might not be abiding by it's terms if they redistribute AGPL code, and knows they probably don't have the right to redistribute under any other term. They can choose to knowingly possibly violate the license, or to knowingly commit copyright infringement, or to ban AGPL code. Those first two options, with that "knowingly" in there, open them up to potential legal action.

> And AGPL isn't the only "must publish all your server's source code" license available, so to prohibition is too specific if that's the actual reason.

If you make Square's lawyers aware of some of those other licenses, it wouldn't suprise me if they get banned too for the same reason. It's not like they have psychic knowledge of the existence of all licenses. Failure to audit the universe doesn't mean that's not their reason.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload#Safe_harbor_provisi...

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by eesmith on Thursday June 06, 2019 @11:08PM (#20121316)
Square didn't agreeing to that license. A third party did.

If the third party sold a copy of MS Windows using Square's services/software/platform, could Square even in theory be sued by Microsoft for copyright infringement?

It sounds like "yes" from my reading of what you write. So AGPL isn't something special.

Their lawyers don't need to be psychic about other licenses. Why did they specifically qualify with "v3"? That is, the original Affero license is one of the other alternatives, yet they seem to allow it.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by MaulingMonkey on Friday June 07, 2019 @12:01AM (#20121565)
> If the third party sold a copy of MS Windows using Square's services/software/platform, could Square even in theory be sued by Microsoft for copyright infringement?

If Square was knowingly engaged in the distribution of Microsoft's software against Microsoft's license terms, absolutely. (EDIT: Well, I'm assuming they're helping distribute it, might be "conspiracy to commit copyright infringement" otherwise?)

> So AGPL isn't something special.

Correct...ish. I'm sure piracy, if not explicitly against the ToS, will get you kicked off too. The closest the AGPL gets to being special is the nebulous situation we find debated throughout this HN discussion tree - is it legal for Square to distribute? It's reasonable that customers might think so. It's reasonable that square's lawyers might think not.

But you've pointed out that even that isn't unique to the AGPLv3 specifically - so why call it out, specifically? My wild uneducated guess - a customer used AGPLv3 software, Square became aware of it somehow (license review team? or perhaps someone tried to exercise AGPLv3 rights and requested server code?), and eventually involves their Lawyer. Lawyer then looks into the specific case of their customer using specific software, reads the license of said software (AGPLv3), and becomes nervous about Square's possible legal exposure.

After the awkward conversation with their customer (possibly much like the discussion in this HN thread as to if Square would/wouldn't be knowingly facilitating AGPLv3 license violations by not sharing their own code, and thus legally liable), Square settles the matter by banning the specific license outright, possibly after giving them a chance to move away from AGPLv3 software first since it wasn't strictly against the ToS, and then explicitly adds it to the ban list for the benifit of customers and customer service who probably weren't privy to whatever lengthy private discussions might've been had with that one specific customer.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by eesmith on Friday June 07, 2019 @12:14AM (#20121620)
I like your guess.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by nabla9 on Thursday June 06, 2019 @05:56AM (#20113009)
It's almost like they used some kind of AI software to scan legal documents, then it found sentence fragments like " .. opportunity for all users interacting with your Program through a computer network ..".

You need artificial stupidity to misunderstand the "Interacting with Program through a computer network" in the way Square seems to understand it. Distributing software via online store is not interacting with the program.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by Beltiras on Thursday June 06, 2019 @10:05AM (#20114656)
Some would maintain that being a legal analyst requires you to be artificially stupid because you are looking for loopholes and trying to avoid being trapped by ridiculous edge cases, whereas AI is trying to find a general solution that will work in 6-9s cases.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by EdwardDiego on Thursday June 06, 2019 @01:20PM (#20116721)
> Distributing software via online store is not interacting with the program.

Has that been tested in a court yet? If it hasn't, then a lawyer would immediately see risk.

I mean, look at Oracle vs Google on whether or not an API is copyrighted.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by merb on Thursday June 06, 2019 @07:37AM (#20113504)
I see that aswell. else, google would need to provide the source code for gcloud, since I can run agpl software on top of their compute nodes... like wtf?
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by rambojazz on Thursday June 06, 2019 @07:56AM (#20113618)
BTW, isn't this the exact purpose of the new MongoDB license?
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by ceejayoz on Thursday June 06, 2019 @09:54AM (#20114560)
No, not at all.

MongoDB's new license targets scenarios where Google would provide a hosted MongoDB service to their customers (like Amazon's RDS offering, for example). It has no impact on individual customers personally spinning up their own MongoDB on their own set of servers for their own use.

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by rambojazz on Thursday June 06, 2019 @10:36AM (#20114923)
My comment was a reply to the parent comment, not a reference to the article. What the parent comment says sounds like the true purpose of the new mongo license.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by ralph84 on Thursday June 06, 2019 @06:10AM (#20113067)
This almost certainly is about keeping Square’s code closed source, not anything to do with Square’s customers selling software.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by nabla9 on Thursday June 06, 2019 @06:22AM (#20113120)
It's clearly not. It's term related to software sold in their online store.

>3. Online Store > I. Your Content and Content Restrictions

Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by chmarr on Thursday June 06, 2019 @01:19PM (#20116707)
"Content" also includes images/html/js, etc, that is uploaded to provide the store interface.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by ksec on Thursday June 06, 2019 @04:12PM (#20118621)
I just wanted to mention I upvoted you but I disagree with you. And there are enough explanations given below your comment then I can write.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by giancarlostoro on Thursday June 06, 2019 @09:29AM (#20114314)
I mean I never understood AGPL for client-side code to be honest. Would the GPL not cover this use case? My understanding of the license is that the GPL would of been enough, unless the AGPL has some terms I'm not aware of that aren't server specific like ensuring access to code in unobsfucated form or something.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by zanny on Thursday June 06, 2019 @11:12AM (#20115294)
AGPLv3 is a superset of GPLv3. If you never expect your code to be hosted the GPL is all you need to guarantee user freedoms.
Re:Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed sof... by sokoloff on Thursday June 06, 2019 @11:18AM (#20115351)
I don't think your expectations are the limit, but rather what your users (and their users) will end up actually doing, whether or not you expect or foresee it.