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Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Isinlor on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:59AM (#20075177)
These temperatures in high humidity can be deadly even to healthy and fit humans as our bodies are left without a way to cool down. Currently, they have humidity around 10-20% so it affects the most vulnerable, but global warming may lead to making parts of the world literally deadly to every human being...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature

The wet-bulb temperature (WBT) is the temperature read by a thermometer covered in water-soaked cloth (wet-bulb thermometer) over which air is passed.

Sustained wet-bulb temperature exceeding 35 °C (95 °F) is likely to be fatal even to fit and healthy people, unclothed in the shade next to a fan; at this temperature our bodies switch from shedding heat to the environment, to gaining heat from it.[8] Thus 35 °C (95 °F) is the threshold beyond which the body is no longer able to adequately cool itself. A study by NOAA from 2013 concluded that heat stress will reduce labor capacity considerably under current emissions scenarios.[9]

A 2010 study concluded that under a worst-case scenario for global warming with temperatures 12 °C (22 °F) higher than 2007, the wet-bulb temperature limit for humans could be exceeded around much of the world in future centuries.[10] A 2015 study concluded that parts of the globe could become uninhabitable.[11] An example of the threshold at which the human body is no longer able to cool itself and begins to overheat is a humidity level of 50% and a high heat of 46 °C (115 °F), as this would indicate a wet-bulb temperature of 35 °C (95 °F).

The 2015 Indian heat wave saw wet-bulb temperatures in Andhra Pradesh reach 30 °C (86 °F). A similar wet-bulb temperature was reached during the 1995 Chicago heat wave.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by gonzo41 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:00AM (#20075483)
Thanks for posting this. It's something that's really hard to communicate about climate change to people. It's also super depressing. I went down with heat stroke once and I get know what this is like. I was in hospital for 4 days after a close brush with kidney failure. So many people just think it'll be just a bit hotter in the future.
[dead]
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by dang on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:00PM (#20077287)
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by jey on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:25PM (#20076742)
It's actually a really interesting question, but also very hard to answer in practice. The positive answer would involve the ability of competitive markets[1] to serve as efficient mechanisms that coordinate the activities of people across the globe to collectively increase wealth/output[2]. With greater total surplus, it becomes relatively "cheaper" [on a societal level] to solve problems like saving the village. (Of course, this leaves out the public goods problem of actually provisioning the village-saving in the case that the villagers don't get lifted up directly by economic growth and buy it for themselves.)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_equilibrium

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorems_of_welfar...

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by jobigoud on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:59AM (#20075853)
> fatal even to fit and healthy people, unclothed in the shade next to a fan;

This is scary, what's a good way to survive for someone that doesn't have access to a bunker or AC? Immersing oneself in water in a bathtub?

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by ajross on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:07AM (#20075922)
A tub will work, sure, as long as it's pulled from a large body of water that hasn't warmed up with the air. Hopping in the local lake is an obvious choice.

But in a detached demographic sense: effectively everyone lives in a city in the modern world, and while their housing might not be air conditioned most of the major buildings are. In an emergency like this everyone would just crowd into office buildings and shopping malls.

That's not to say this wouldn't be horrifying, but it's not the kind of existential social crisis people tend to imagine. Cooling ourselves down in a heat wave, in the modern world, is a solved problem at least as far as keeping ourselves alive goes.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by jogjayr on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:06PM (#20076618)
> effectively everyone lives in a city in the modern world, and while their housing might not be air conditioned most of the major buildings are.

The states of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, and Uttar Pradesh lag the rest of the nation in economic development. This statement is very much not true in those places, and even elsewhere in India. Air-conditioning is still a luxury outside of relatively well-off people's houses, corporate buildings, and malls.

> Cooling ourselves down in a heat wave, in the modern world, is a solved problem at least as far as keeping ourselves alive goes.

People there can't afford to not work. Sitting in an air-conditioned space for half the working day 4 months a year is not viable for them. A lot of the work is manual or farm labor that must necessarily be done outdoors.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by machz on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:57PM (#20080052)
These states are also not very humid. Temperatures in Rajasthan have exceeded 50 several times and people have traditional ways of dealing with it.

Not saying that #climatechange isn't an emergency; but people won't suddenly die.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:38AM (#20076096)
Every human is effectively a 100W space heater just from being alive. That means you need at least 30W of air conditioning capacity per human to keep the temperature constant (on top of what you need to counter heat from outside).

Unless these buildings are designed as emergency shelters for heat waves their air conditioning systems won't be able to cope with all the people.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by bloopernova on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:51PM (#20076540)
That's a deeply upsetting mental image. Thousands of people shelter in a building during a heatwave, the electrical grid is overloaded and the AC shuts down.

This makes me want to go live in a deep cave somewhere :(

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by newnewpdro on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:15PM (#20076670)
I don't think it's that simple at all.

The principal human-appreciated effect of AC is the dehumidifying of the air when it's cooled.

The dry interior air allows human perspiration to regulate temperature effectively. The AC doesn't have to cool all the bodies, it just has to keep the air dry enough.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by the8472 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:33PM (#20076805)
Don't ACs dehumidify by condensing the water? If so then it means they need to get rid of the heat of vaporization, the same amount of energy the humans shed by evaporative cooling.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by newnewpdro on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:22PM (#20077855)
In a closed system sure, but I'd expect a larger building to have significant fresh-air return systems.

In a scenario where you've filled the place with people, the interior humidity is going to exceed that of the exterior air and you'd just start dumping the moisture outside exchanging with the fresh, dryer air. It's a comfort regression sure, but not a everyone dies situation.

The survival of the people doesn't come down to the AC heat pump keeping up, it comes down to supplying them enough water to drink and disposing of the humidified air.

My point is just that it's the relative humidity that matters, and the AC system has some options there. I've lived through a desert summer in a small space without any AC at all. I'd just keep the windows closed as deep into the day as possible riding out the night's cooling until the air gets too humid indoors from sweat and respiration for the fan to have any cooling effect. At that point I'd open the windows for relief. The air coming in was usually much hotter than the interior air, since the space was well insulated and nights get cool, but it didn't matter because it's very dry air and perspiration resumes functioning. The situation is easily survived unless you run out of water for your person.

Of course if the outdoor air is something like 100% humidity there's only the heat pump option, but that simply doesn't happen in deserts when it's hot out. It's a desert, not the tropics.

In the desert the relative humidity shoots up when it cools down, the humid nights are the worst. But it's because they cooled down. Again, not a survival problem since it's not that hot, just uncomfortably muggy. One saving grace with deserts is they don't generally have any mosquitoes, so these humid nights can easily be spent outdoors without any annoyance.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:51PM (#20078089)
> In a scenario where you've filled the place with people, the interior humidity is going to exceed that of the exterior air and you'd just start dumping the moisture outside exchanging with the fresh, dryer air. It's a comfort regression sure, but not a everyone dies situation.

That's equivalent to opening a window without the AC doing anything. If that would work we wouldn't be in a "crowd everyone into a shopping center" type situation, the people would be just fine outside in the shade.

> It's a desert, not the tropics.

While half of India is in the tropics, this part indeed isn't. But next month the monsoon will put humidity at approximately 100% [1].

1: https://en.climate-data.org/asia/india/delhi/new-delhi-30/

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by newnewpdro on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:30PM (#20078376)
> That's equivalent to opening a window without the AC doing anything.

Even when the air temperature at your fresh air intake is cooler than the air at your condensor coil? Wouldn't we assume no system would draw its fresh air from near the condensor coil?

You still have a heat pump in the system, and there's a temperature difference between the air inlet and the pump outlet.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by saeranv on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:31PM (#20077922)
Yes, ACs are heat pumps, which means they're just moving heat from one area to another. So yes, the heat shed by human beings via evaporative cooling, is then dumped outside via heat of vaporization.

Specifically the ambient indoor air heat is absorbed by refrigerant which is transformed into a superheated vapor saturated with moisture. When this vapor either touches a cooler surface, or has cooler air blown past it, it will dehumidify and exhaust the heat it has absorbed indoors to the outside. The mechanical work done by the AC (fans, pumps) is also being released as heat. So the total energy being dumped outside is therefore the heat that's taken from the inside plus the energy used by the AC released as heat.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Scoundreller on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:13PM (#20077373)
Right, but it does mean you just need to be in a somewhat sealed room to remove the humidity instead of constantly fighting the ever-warming walls/floors/ceiling. Of course you need to exchange CO2 and O2 to stay alive.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:44PM (#20077593)
But the people in the room will create more humidity that you have to constantly remove again.

Humans burning calories to stay alive creates heat, and thermodynamics that you spend energy to remove it or see the temperature rise. Whether that heat is hot air or bound as humidity shouldn't make a large difference.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by saeranv on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:41PM (#20078000)
It's more complicated then that. Take a look at this psychrometric chart showing the environmental bounds at which human comfort is guaranteed: http://comfort.cbe.berkeley.edu/

You can see there that even at extremely dry conditions, if the operative (ambient + radiant) temperature is hot enough, it will cause heat discomfort. Even if the human starts sweating, that'll only reduce the temperature a bit so dehumidification isn't the only role of air conditions, sensible cooling is also a factor.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by saeranv on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:42PM (#20078007)
How are you deriving the 30W of AC capacity here?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:26PM (#20077458)
Air conditioning itself is a significant contributor to greenhouse gas emissions, via energy consumption:

https://www.rehva.eu/knowledge-base/rehva-journal/chapter/ai...

See the pie chart on page two: eletricity consumption from cooling systems is 17% of global consumption. The IPCC expects this usage to rise as temperatures rise.

I would also like to challenge the notion that human beings understand how to use air conditioning units. In pretty much every building I visited or vehicle I boarded with air conditioning, if the unit was on, the windows were also wide open at the same time. In Greece, where I'm from, in the summer, you can cool down just by walking past stores, with their doors thrown wide to signal they're open for business and their air conditioning blasting cool air onto the street. It may be 42°C in the shade, but in front of our shop, it's 15°! Come on in and buy our stuff! But put on your coat first.

Contemplate for a second the futility of this behaviour: air conditioning pumps heat out of a room, into the environment; leaving the windows open allows the heat to circulate back into the room. The unit typically has a thermostat, also typically set at an unrealistically low value, that would cause the user to turn on the heating in winter. The unit goes to work and pushes the warm air out trying to reach its target temperature. The warm air cycles back in from outside and tries to raise the temperature. The unit keeps working, and working, and working, wasting energy all the time. Eventually, this contributes to warming, which causes more people to buy and misuse air conditioning.

We might know how to survive a heat wave, by our clever use of technology, but we don't know how to use technology to avoid more and more severe heat waves.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by ricardobeat on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:36PM (#20077537)
Air curtains can be extremely efficient and allow doors to stay open. That sounds like an insane waste of money and energy if store owners are not using one - are you sure you're not just feeling the 10-20% lost cold air when walking past?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:57PM (#20077689)
Yes, I'm sure.

Edit: because obviousy I also go into shops to buy stuff and I've never seen an air door used. If air doors are used, they are very, very rare.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by saeranv on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:46PM (#20078032)
Also the AC dumps heat outside, which in urban areas contributes to local heat increase (i.e Urban Heat Island effect), which in turn requires even more AC too fight.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by TheCoelacanth on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:28AM (#20076053)
Offices and shopping malls are upper-middle class things in India. They would not come close to holding the entire population. There would be millions of people dying if temperatures got that high.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by ajross on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:35AM (#20076084)
I'd want to see cites for that, honestly. Obviously India's commerce centers can't come close to handling a billion shoppers, but there's enough floor space in the urban core of Bangalore to house the at-risk population for a 72 hour heat wave.

The point is emergency management here. And I'd bet anything that somewhere there's a workable plan drawn up for exactly this kind of occurrence.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by TheCoelacanth on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:50AM (#20076167)
India's total retail space is 2 sq ft/person[1]. That's not enough space for someone to sleep in, even assuming that 100% of the retail space there is air conditioned (it's not) and assuming that the AC systems can keep up with that much body heat in temperatures that high (they can't).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retailing_in_India#The_Indian_...

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by lotsofpulp on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:13PM (#20076317)
>The point is emergency management here. And I'd bet anything that somewhere there's a workable plan drawn up for exactly this kind of occurrence.

Aside from ACs having a limit on cooling far below “everyone packed in a building”, if you’ve ever done business in India, I don’t see how one could assume there would be a plan drawn up for this grand of a scenario, much less many smaller scale scenarios.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Arun2009 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:10PM (#20076643)
> there's enough floor space in the urban core of Bangalore

There's vastly more to India than a few metro cities. A quick google search reveals that around 65+ % of Indian population lives in rural areas.

India is in for some very dark times if the climate situation gets worse. The positive lining in the cloud is that we have some measure of political stability for the next 5 years.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by dragonwriter on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:26PM (#20077102)
> effectively everyone lives in a city in the modern world, and while their housing might not be air conditioned most of the major buildings are. In an emergency like this everyone would just crowd into office buildings and shopping malls.

Heat waves spur increases in violent crime, limited in some degree by the fact that people stay in their own homes in really hot (but not uninhabitably so) heat waves.

Heat waves that go further to where the only survivable solution is pulling people out of their homes into large communal shelters (whether they otherwise serve as offices or shopping malls or whatever) is...going to be very ugly.

And that's even before considering whether the facilities or supporting infrastructure (plumbing, electrical systems, etc.) are adequate to support these places being used as shelters. Almost certainly they won't be until it's happened and failed a few times, and even after that the places that most need it will be the least able to finance the necessary upgrades.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by blensor on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:48PM (#20076520)
Is this really a long term solution. An A/C does not "produce" cold air it just reduces the temperature at one spot by increasing the temperature in another place making the temperature around those buildings even warmer. At some point A/C units will be battling for that little temperature difference that allows them to perform their function with increasingly higher energy demand.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by TaylorAlexander on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:18PM (#20076697)
Yeah and how much CO2 emissions will that A/C emit?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by bufferoverflow on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:37PM (#20077166)
Zero if it runs off solar.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by blensor on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:50PM (#20077227)
I'm not sure if it's an actual issue but solar panels are quite dark and get really hot. I could imagine that a huge solar array does measurably heat the immediate surrounding area.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by bufferoverflow on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:26PM (#20079408)
Even if it were true, it doesn't produce extra CO2.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by TaylorAlexander on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:58PM (#20080056)
Sure, but a solar powered A/C system is well out of the price range of a few billion people on earth.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:43AM (#20076126)
Large bodies of water, mine shafts or just holes in the ground. Just a few meters below the ground temperatures are effectively constant, barely effected by weather. Ocean temperatures are similiarly stable.

Of course you can't start digging while dying of heat stroke and you can't crowd people into any places (people are great space heaters). With education about proper measures a few days should be survivable for rural populations. In cities you just need air conditioning, there's no other viable way to cool large amounts of people.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by phonypc on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:51AM (#20076170)
I credit drinking copious amounts of ice water and frequent urination for helping me avoid hyperthermia for 10+ hours working in a kitchen where the air temperature read 52C + radiative heat from various equipment and high perceived humidity.

Granted I don't know the wet-bulb temp actually exceeded 35C

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by vishnugupta on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:11PM (#20077353)
I've experienced this heat wave in various degrees and in different situations (long distance cycling, shopping, trekking, etc.,) and places (Bangalore, Bombay, and Delhi).

The most effective preventive measure, in my experience, is to drink (~200ml of) mineral-filled water once every half an hour. The body's heat regulation mechanism works best when provided with sufficient amount of water. The problem only begins to manifest once the body water levels aren't good enough to dispose of heat as well as maintain blood circulation in which case the body prefers to give up heat regulation over fluid circulation.

Under normal circumstances, we are used to drinking water only when we get thirsty. Under extreme heat, however, by the time thirst signal kicks in it could be too late. I learned this the hard way during long-distance cycling. Since then I've followed cyclists' mantra of eat-before-hungry and drink-before-thirsty.

Another thing to keep in mind is to drink mineralized water (such as Gatorade, juices, tender coconut water, etc.,). When you sweat you also lose a lot of minerals so replenishing just water isn't good enough.

Most of the heat wave death in India doesn't occur in an urban setting as people have access to water within walking distance. It is the farmers who are in the most danger as a) They are directly exposed to sun b) They are engaged in strenuous physical activity. By the time they realize the danger they are in it'd be too late and they lose consciousness with no one around them to help out in vast agricultural fields.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by myself248 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:26AM (#20076041)
The water is only cooler because it's evaporating, meaning the wet-bulb temperature also describes the water's own limit.

35°C is slightly cooler than body temperature, so it would work just a little bit as a heatsink, but another degree or two and even that becomes ineffective.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by leereeves on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:42AM (#20076119)
The water is cooler because the specific heat of water is very high, meaning it takes more heat energy to increase the temperature of water.

So a large body of water stays cool for a long time, and then stabilizes around the daily average temperature, not the high.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:51AM (#20076173)
> and then stabilizes around the daily average temperature, not the high.

However the acceptable temperature range in water is also much smaller because under water we exchange heat quickly and don't have a way to cool below the temperature of the water. Water above ~38°C would be dangerous to stay submersed in. Not a problem for huge bodies of water, but important to keep in mind on the small scale.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by jniedrauer on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:53PM (#20076931)
The phase change of water from liquid to gas is an endothermic reaction. In an emergency, if you had water and a fan, you could continually soak yourself and then accelerate water evaporation using the fan. This would keep you significantly cooler than the water temperature itself.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wrong_variable on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:02AM (#20075878)
Yes, the global poor living in high humid areas have always done that. So have Elephants and Hippos.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by modzu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:12PM (#20077032)
here in my part of canada temperatures are regularly deadly, ie below 0°C. its a legitimate problem for homeless and otherwise vulnerable people.

while some parts of the world warm to become uninhabitable, others will warm to the opposite.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by selimthegrim on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:03PM (#20077308)
Where is this? N Alberta?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by ramraj07 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:50AM (#20075426)
What caused Chicago of all places to reach that temperature?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by joezydeco on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:25AM (#20075639)
Chicago regularly gets heat waves in that range, but moisture coming from the plains via heavy rains and/or agricultural crops contributes to the humidity levels which really are the killer.

A temperature inversion also happened that July, so no wind and pollution stagnated over the city.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by theli0nheart on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:02AM (#20075494)
Your comment includes footnote references but none of the footnotes themselves.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by tryptophan on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:08AM (#20075530)
I think its a copy paste from the linked wikipedia page, with links from there too.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by amai on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:29AM (#20076058)
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by freehunter on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:03PM (#20076989)
They're two attempts to measure the same thing, but with different results. Heat index is measured assuming a human walking at 3mph in the shade and attempts to show how hot the air feels when you take into account the humidity (and associated lack of cooling from perspiration).

Wet-bulb is the measurement of the lowest possible temperature a human body can achieve under current ambient temperatures and humidity (taking into account current wind speed). Basically the air temperature minus the ability to cool yourself by sweating given the current wind speed.

They're both designed to show how hot the air feels to your body rather than just air temperature, just with different calculations and assumptions.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Shorel on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:51PM (#20076909)
How long can we stay in a sauna before it is deadly?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Gibbon1 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:28PM (#20077116)
I've been in some rooms that are kept at 120 degrees and 80% humidity. You can work for about an 45 minutes to an hour at most (Adult male). Working being monkeying with stuff in an electrical cabinet.

I think you'd be in serious trouble after 2-3 hours.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by elorant on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:21PM (#20077079)
Most saunas have relatively low levels of humidity, between 20% and 30%. It's hard to keep high humidity levels when temperature rises. Other than that, it's generally suggested to not exceed 20 minutes in a sauna. Steam rooms on the other hand have higher humidity levels but lower temperature and it's not allowed to stay more than 15 minutes inside.

From personal experience I've never used a sauna for more than 10 minutes and I always carry a bottle of water with me inside.