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Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by fiblye on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:57AM (#20075168)
In dry climates with such hot temperatures, staying hydrated and sweating will keep you cool (or rather, keep you cool enough to not die).

What happens when temperatures like these are reached in high humidity zones where sweat just sticks? Will we simply have entire communities that lack air conditioning dying off?

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Tepix on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:59AM (#20075176)
They will turn into refugees. That's part of why we expect hundreds of millions of climate refugees in the coming decades.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:41AM (#20075379)
Been telling people for a while, if we think the amount of refugees from our wars is bad, just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn.

Though given our reaction to the current wave of refugees, we will blame the refugees for their own predicament and probably George Soros, as is tradition, long before we accept any blame ourselves.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wtdata on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:14PM (#20076661)
> just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn.

But in the case is the fuel they burn, right? India is projected to become the 2nd biggest producer of CO2 (behind China) this decade.

Also, I go around here and gasoline is so cheap that people don't care about waste. Drivers let their cars with the motor on while they go to buy some small thing to eat or drink.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wongarsu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:43PM (#20076869)
Per capita India is still pretty good, they just have a lot of people. Also their emissions wouldn't be a problem yet without the last 100 years of emissions from Europe and North America. They are slowly becoming part of the problem, but I don't think it's fair to blame yet.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by wtmt on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:32PM (#20077137)
India also has a huge dairy industry [1] (seems like the largest), where methane produced by these animals adds to the greenhouse effect.

[1]: https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=milk&graph...

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by kabwj on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:53AM (#20075451)
Or we will simply not accept the refugees. As you said at current numbers it’s been really bad. At much higher numbers it will simply be a better and more popular option to close the border.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by z3phyr on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:38PM (#20076466)
Then slowly the climate change will come for you. Will your borders stop the climate?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by mikeash on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:58PM (#20076953)
To riff on a common quote: if a million refugees want to get into your country and you don’t admit them, the refugees have a problem. If a billion refugees want in, you have a problem.

Nothing “simply” about it.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by user5994461 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:57PM (#20077273)
That's a wrong statement though.

One million people is a single city. You do have a problem if one million people are suddenly relocating. It has happened before for war, natural disasters or other reasons.

Migrating a billion people is not a thing, for the simple fact that there isn't any human settlement any close to approaching a billion people. If you're talking about the scale of a whole continent, migratory flux span over a lifetime and are not homogeneous.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by mikeash on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:18PM (#20077409)
I’m talking from the perspective of the country the refugees are trying to enter. If a million refugees are headed your way and you don’t want to let them in, you can close the border and enact strict immigration controls and you’re fine. Sucks for the refugees, but the target country has no problem aside from the emotional burden. If a billion people are headed your way, you’re fucked.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:30PM (#20077484)
>Migrating a billion people is not a thing

Yet.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:03AM (#20075497)
At current numbers, the effect on our own society from our own reaction has cause much more damage to ourselves than the effects from the refugees themselves.

I suspect you may be right that the popular option will be to close the border. I do not agree however, that it is the better option.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by kabwj on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:10AM (#20075539)
It’s caused a divide because the number of current economic refugees is relatively small. Thus many people thought it was possible to have them stay in the first world. Hence the divide in public opinion. But I believe that if the estimates are right, the number of climate refugees will be so high that people will more or less agree that it’s better to close the border in that situation.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:31AM (#20075674)
>the number of current economic refugees is relatively small

Interesting way to describe people fleeing war.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by kache_ on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:59AM (#20076228)
Economic refugees don't have it good either. Starving and dying from disease isn't easy.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:29PM (#20076411)
If you are travelling because otherwise you will starve while dying from disease, you are a refugee. Economic migration generally assumes that you are not likely to die from returning. I do not think it is that wise to conflate the terms.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Scoundreller on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:27PM (#20077463)
Being too poor to not have enough food, or experiencing a crop failure, does not meet official definitions of refugee eligibility:

https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:47PM (#20077610)
It does meet common dictionary definitions though - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/refugee
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Scoundreller on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:32PM (#20078387)
Your link’s definition limits it to issues of war, persecution or natural disasters.

A crop failure might be a natural disaster, but lots of other causes of starvation that are not.

Main point is, if you’re seeking refuge, try to put a clear-cut reason down rather than something debatable, but sensible, like absolute poverty.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by hedora on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:15AM (#20075584)
What happens when the coasts stop accepting refugees from the red states?

This will certainly happen in a scenario where there are massive refugee populations elsewhere in the world.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:07AM (#20075915)
Oh joy. Grapes of Wrath 2, heavy weapons edition.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by empath75 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:04AM (#20075895)
Eventually policies like that will lead to mass deaths.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:29AM (#20075297)
Yep I think mass migration is inevitable.

Given the absolute mess migration was out of Syria into Europe (and that was comparatively minor) I think it's going to be unpleasant.

Once it starts it'll snowball as well instead of an orderly evacuation it'll be pell-mell.

Sometimes think it would be nice to have a single rational world government so that we could deal with these things on a species level.

Of course if we had a single rational world government for any length of time we wouldn't be in this mess.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by pferde on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:49AM (#20075422)
I fully agree with you, but thought that the words "out of Syria" are not really reflecting reality. According to Wikipedia[1], only about a third of the migrants originated in Syria.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis#Statis...

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:57AM (#20075471)
That's true but it is referred to colloquially as "The Syrian Crisis" here, in any case I don't what the solution is, I deeply admire the Germans for what they did though.

Taking 1.5 million migrants with a population of 82 million, if the UK (my country) had done the same ratio that would have been 1.2 million, best figure I can find for UK is <20 thousand.

One thing I do wonder is what western culture will look like in a hundred years if the world bank figures are right (140-200 million displaced people).

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by poilcn on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:48PM (#20077214)
Turkey took at least 3 mln people with the same population as Germany and nobody admires what they did. Syria itself took 1.2 mln of refugees from Iraq, nobody cared. Palestine refugees in Lebanon, Afghanistan refugees in Iran. Whole Middle East is filled with refugees from different regions. All these cases could've been prevented if so called democratic nations hold their governments accountable, there were no "climate" in wars that caused these movements. Just rational people in power with no repercussions for their actions. People have no control over what happens in their cities, but believe they have any power to fight in a global scale with climate change. A major can't handle a city where he/she lives. Now scale it to the "world government" mentioned before, which would be physically located thousands kilometers from places which it would govern. The best solution to migrant crisis you can find in Switzerland. Government does not have power over who becomes citizen, the people at places have. People with whom these newcomers would have to live. Zero conflict. Behavior and relations of people is different when one is hold accountable only to faceless bureaucrats and to real people.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by stevezsa8 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:49AM (#20076160)
Culture evolves/changes over time.

So it's a valid question as long as it's not a veiled "will there be too many brown people".

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:25PM (#20076382)
Couldn't care less one way or the other about how many brown people there are in Europe, I'm curious if western culture will be significantly altered one way or the other though - there are elements of it I like and would hope would promulgate into the future is all.

It's interesting that you can't really broach it as a question though without it been implied that racism is involved, if you can't debate a subject without been accused of racism then you leave all debate of that subject to racists since they may not care about been accused of racism.

Too many people use race as a placeholder for culture and vice versa (same with religion).

Honestly things would be better if both sides would stop hurling slurs at each other and actually debate the issues but I figure it serves them to have this kind of fight as it gains both sides followers.

I'm seeing more and more of that kind of balkanization in the UK and it's worrying, Brexit has opened some pretty nasty wounds that may not heal in my lifetime.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by inflatableDodo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:54PM (#20076551)
>I'm seeing more and more of that kind of balkanization in the UK and it's worrying

I am keeping a close eye on the proposed 'Free Ports'.

>"Can "free ports" spark a post-Brexit manufacturing boom? Jonty Bloom reports from Teesside, which plans to become the UK's newest free port, offering customs-free imports and hoping to bring back manufacturing jobs."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46349717

>"For each Free Zone, the area covered and the defined entry and exit points shall be determined by the Member State. The perimeter and the entry and exit points must be under customs supervision. Member State must communicate to the commission details of the Free Zones in operation.

>All Free Zones shall be enclosed. Persons, goods and means of transport entering or leaving Free Zones may be subject to customs controls."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-3001-speci...

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by cheez on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:34AM (#20075331)
> Of course if we had a single rational world government for any length of time we wouldn't be in this mess.

No, you would be in another mess.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Filligree on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:46AM (#20075404)
That other mess might be preferable. I'd say this will get bad, but that wouldn't cover it. We might well see gigadeath.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by cheez on Monday June 03, 2019 @08:15AM (#20082329)
Take the way the US is run and make it global.

Alternatively, take the way North Korea is run and make it global. This is the only way it could work.

As a third alternative, take the way the EU is run, and make it global.

What are the problems? There is way too much diversity for a single entity to handle the various aspects.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by gingabriska on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:38AM (#20075360)
Can anyone guess where will the first wave of climate change refugees will be from and where they'll be heading too?
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by yardie on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:56AM (#20075467)
Low lying islands like the Maldives will be first. But the population is relatively small. You already have climate refugees in Africa. The Sahara is spreading south. Destroying lives of those that live on the subsaharan border. They flee to neighbouring countries and eventually Europe. The major concern is countries like Bangladesh. It’s a low coastal country with a huge population.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by drjesusphd on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:37PM (#20077970)
To the extent that the Syrian civil war was aggregated by drought, we may have already seen the first climate refugees.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:45AM (#20075393)
That's actually an interesting question.

Gut response is wherever is currently the hottest but that may not be the case since there are a bunch of factors that will effect it.

Good report on it here.

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/infographic/2018/03/19/gro...

Direct Link: https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/2... (PDF)

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by hedora on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:50AM (#20075788)
Climate change refugees are already common.

For instance, climate change played some role in the current Venezuelan refugee crisis (the one that has Trump separating families and housing people in camps under overpasses, or bussing them to sanctuary cities).

Today, the main problem is that their government started to collapse in 2017, so they are unable to supply food to their population.

Why did the government start to collapse? Well, they have seen lower crop yields in recent years, which means more food imports, which means they are more vulnerable to embargoes, etc.

It only has data to 2016, but this site shows across the board agricultural production collapses in 2015 and 2016.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/venezuela/agricultural-productio...

The government went into disarray in 2017.

In 2018 (and maybe earlier; tldr) US sanctions cut off oil revenue. The sanctions are due to terrorism, corruption, human trafficking, and human rights violations, which are, again symptoms of a collapsing government:

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

You may also remember tortilla riots a few years back when the price of corn spiked. That probably led to some migration.

Arguably, and famines that led to refugees in the last 10-20 years are due to climate change.

The issue is that we’re at a tipping point where they will become more common.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:39PM (#20076477)
Not sure why you got downvote for an argument made with data sources but I gave you an upvote anyway.

Spirited debate is the best thing about this place.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Eric_WVGG on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:51AM (#20075437)
The wall our president wants to build has nothing to do with current immigration trends. They’re banking on this future.

Steve Bannon has this book he’s always talking about, The Camp of the Saints. It’s the clearest and most concise guide for how they see the climate future rolling out. (This is also why I bristle when they get called climate change deniers. They’re not, they just reached different conclusions.)

https://observer.com/2018/05/the-insanity-of-alt-right-banno...

(Apologies, I know everyone wants to keep this a politics-light zone; this isn’t off topic.)

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by nabla9 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:12AM (#20075551)
The Camp of the Saints has nothing to do with climate change

It's story about brown and black skinned others destroying western civilization with immigration. The motive is racist. The tone of the book is very passionate and overly emotional.

Here is short preface Jean Raspail wrote to his book:

> I HAD WANTED TO WRITE a lengthy preface to explain my position and show that this is no wild-eyed dream; that even if the specific action, symbolic as it is, may seem farfetched, the fact remains that we are inevitably heading for something of the sort. We need only glance at the awesome population figures predicted for the year 2000, i.e., twenty-eight years from now: seven billion people, only nine hundred million of whom will be white. But what good would it do? I should at least point out, though, that many of the texts I have put into my characters’ mouths or pens—editorials, speeches, pastoral letters, laws, news stories, statements of every description—are, in fact, authentic. Perhaps the reader will spot them as they go by. In terms of the fictional situation I have presented, they become all the more revealing.

Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by samudrin on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:56AM (#20075823)
Amazing someone could use so many words and say so little. I guess they need to cloak their racism.
Re:India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius by Eric_WVGG on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:59PM (#20077712)
Whether the novel had anything to do with climate change is irrelevant to the lessons that people take from it.