News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by zizee on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:02PM (#20072299)
I believe this is partly a cultural artifact of Japan being earthquake prone. The severity and frequency of earthquakes used to make it difficult to build housing that would last.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by fiblye on Saturday June 01, 2019 @10:18PM (#20073050)
People are downvoting you, but everyone I know here in Japan has told me this.

It's not that they're planning for complete annihilation from a massive earthquake, but there's bound to be some wear and tear when a relatively large one strikes every few years. Compound that with the absurd humidity and mold problem endemic to pretty much all of coastal Asia (trying to keep your house mold-free is a losing battle after a certain point and it's unavoidable) and the cost and effort of repairs far outweighs the ease of just tearing it down and rebuilding.

In the west, a 20 year old house is considered brand new. In Japan, 20 years old is bordering on junk territory. 30 years is junk and not worth the effort of repairs. You can search online and find 40 year old houses basically selling for pocket change since they're basically considered moldy death traps on the verge of collapse.

Now, though, Western-style homes built to withstand earthquakes are becoming common and they're expected to be a slightly better investment. How these houses fair against mold is something I'm not sure of.

A commenter below mentioned spirits accumulating in a house, but I've never heard of such a thing and it reeks of mysterious orientalism. But most people won't buy a house that someone committed suicide in or was murdered in. "Jikenya" (incident homes) are marked as such and sell for drastically reduced prices, if they can sell them at all.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by throw0101a on Saturday June 01, 2019 @11:29PM (#20073272)
> Compound that with the absurd humidity and mold problem endemic to pretty much all of coastal Asia (trying to keep your house mold-free is a losing battle after a certain point and it's unavoidable) and the cost and effort of repairs far outweighs the ease of just tearing it down and rebuilding.

Worse than, say, the US South? Just make sure you have air and vapour tightness, with a good whole-house dehumidifier and you should be set.

Good building (science) channel from builder in Austin, TX, where humidity is a thing:

* https://www.youtube.com/user/MattRisinger/videos

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by kalleboo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:20AM (#20074787)
> with a good whole-house dehumidifier and you should be set.

Central air conditioning is not a thing in Japan. People install one split duct heat pump per room they expect to inhabit during summer/winter (generally living + bedroom) and only run those when they're in the room and for as few hours as they can (electricity is expensive)

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by throw0101a on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:54AM (#20083065)
Air conditioning != dehumidifier. One controls air temperature, the other moisture levels.

While air conditioning can reduce humidity, if you have good insulation then your your HVAC won't run that often, but things like cooking and bathing will effect humidity levels, and so a separate apparatus is really needed for that. They're not unreasonably sized:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKJnP_6uxcg * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3wd2yVwzvE

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by kalleboo on Monday June 03, 2019 @11:00AM (#20083791)
My point is just that Japanese homes are not built with any ductwork at all, aside from a vent above the stove and in the shower/bathroom. A "whole-home" device like those you linked would require installing air ducts to every room, and the homes just aren't designed for it.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by throw0101a on Tuesday June 04, 2019 @01:27PM (#20097203)
Actually you wouldn't have to duct the whole house: humidity does not concentrate like heat does, but rather diffuses. So even if you only have a dehumidify one part of the house, the moisture level would level average out (over a given period of time).

Though this does depend slightly on air circulation, but a couple of tubes (e.g.) connecting floors would help balance things out.

Japanese companies produce many quality products that deal with indoor air quality:

* https://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2017/53539.html

There are stand alone units as well:

* http://www.survivingnjapan.com/2012/08/a-guide-to-dehumidifi...

All that said, a proper building envelope is the first thing that needs to be done. Don't know enough JP codes and construction techniques to comment on that though.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by fiblye on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:20AM (#20074024)
It’s not just the inside that molds, but the outside. Going to an even more humid place like Hong Kong or Taiwan, you’ll see most buildings, bridges, signs, and virtually everything covered in a permanent cake of black mold.

It’s bad around the US south, but it’s really far worse in Asia. Few structures are considered permanent.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by throw0101a on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:56AM (#20083087)
IMHO this is failure of layering:

* https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-t...

Moist areas should not be able to come in contact with cold areas: if they do, you have a problem with thermal bridging, which leads to condensation.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by jdc on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:55AM (#20074148)
Few structures are considered permanent.

Not sure if this is meant as hyperbole, how do you explain Japanese buildings built during the 7th century still standing today?

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by njepa on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:08AM (#20074345)
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by ZeroFries on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:10AM (#20075219)
I'm wondering if the mould problems are made worse by the fact that there's already a ton of mould there, spreading spores rampantly. Combine that with a density the US South doesn't even come close to reaching, and you'd have to go on whole-area eradication program to get it manageable.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by throw0101a on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:59AM (#20083109)
Mold growths under specific conditions which can be controlled:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK4xr7faQYA

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by rangibaby on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:45AM (#20073691)
Tokyo (for example) seems to have more extreme weather than Austin, notably it has twice as much rain on average.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by mikekchar on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:23AM (#20074035)
It compares a bit closer to the Carolinas I think. However, Japan has a rainy season as well (usually about mid June to end of July) where it's very humid. It usually dries out a bit in summer (August to mid October) because the temperature goes up.

I remember the first year I was in Japan trying to dry my shirts on the line in the rainy season. All of my clothing was cotton based and quite a lot of it got moldy on the line! Most Japanese clothes these days have at least some synthetics in it so that it dries quicker.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by Aeolun on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:00AM (#20073753)
It is not only suicide or murder homes. My wife (Japanese) extends this to houses that someone died in regardless of the reasons.

It goes so far that there’s apps to check that this is or isn’t the case. But for obvious reasons, the biggest favor goes to buying a new house.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by gaspoweredcat on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:59AM (#20074508)
This peaked my interest, me and a few friends have visited Tokyo several times over the years and will do so many times in the future, given that i wouldnt actually need anything spectacular would it be feasible to buy a cheap old house? if its only good for 5 years itd still save on hotels etc during that time. however im not even sure if youre allowed to own a house as a foreigner
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by JadeNB on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:01PM (#20078153)
I don't know anything about the Japanese style of home ownership, but, in the US, I'd be worried about routine maintenance on a house occupied only a few times a year, as well as the hassle of starting and stopping utilities per visit (probably hard to do from out of country).
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by codedokode on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:06AM (#20073573)
I might be wrong, but is not the motivation for rebuilding houses to build a larger house? E.g. replace a nice 2-floor wooden house with not so nice 9 floor house from bricks and without a garden, and later demolish it and build ugly modern concrete high-rise building?
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by markdown on Saturday June 01, 2019 @11:05PM (#20073213)
> absurd humidity and mold problem endemic to pretty much all of coastal Asia (trying to keep your house mold-free is a losing battle after a certain point and it's unavoidable)

The only place I ever read about this supposedly terrifying mould is on the internet, usually from Americans. What exactly is wrong with mould? Everyone lives in mouldy houses where I live. Going by Americans online, we should all be dead by now (if not from the mould, from touching raw chicken... the other supposed terror).

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by ZeroFries on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:12AM (#20075225)
There's only a few strains of mould which pose a health problem for humans. I wonder if the mould in areas where it's endemic has colonized the "friendlier" strains, competing with the toxic ones, like good gut bacteria.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by stefanfisk on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:06AM (#20073576)
and where do you live?
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by mikekchar on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:30AM (#20074068)
Not OP. I have to admit that my apartment in Japan is covered in mold. It makes for good cheesemaking ;-) Some people in the UK seem to be quite concerned about the health effects of mold as well. I know people who have spent tens of thousands of pounds battling it. I don't have any idea if its justified or not. I know nothing about the topic. However, I can at least verify that the people I know in Japan don't worry very much about mold growing on surfaces in the houses in the summer. You try your best to keep the house clean in the summer and then before new year you do "ousoji" (big cleaning) and clean every surface.

The biggest thing about mold in our household is clothes. You constantly have to take your clothes out of storage and air them. I've had a fair amount of clothes ruined to mold and that's the biggest problem I deal with.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by markdown on Sunday June 02, 2019 @06:02AM (#20074519)
Fiji
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by 0xB31B1B on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:09PM (#20072341)
Do you have any evidence to back this up?

My sources say that this is a long held artifact of the shinto belief system and culture. This is a clumsy way to state this but they essentially that houses accumulate spirits over time and become “haunted”. Old dwellings are valued less because they are “dirtied” or “burdened” with an accumulated cruft of spiritual... somethingness. Haunting here isn’t a literal translation but it’s the best I can do in a short time. It’s kind of how Marie Kondos whole schitck is about treating your things as if they have “personness” or “the quality and dignity of being actively present and deserving of respect”.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by mikekchar on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:38AM (#20074090)
I'm sure some people believe this (although this is the first time I've heard of it). However, Japan is really a secular society. People observe religious rituals, but I literally don't know a single person that actually follows the Shinto religion strictly (and my wife's father and brother were Shinto priests!!!)

Most people build a new house because that's the dream: to live in exactly the house you want to live in. If you buy an old house, then you are putting up with somebody else's choices. That and the fact that until recently houses weren't built to last. You seriously don't want to live in a house built in the 1950's. It wouldn't even take an earthquake for it to fall down around you and kill you ;-)

Housing standards have improved dramatically over time and the difference between at 10 year old house and a new house was historically stark (well, at least since WWII). These days it's starting to even out and I see the used house market starting to pick up a bit (personally, I even prefer the houses built 10 years ago to the ones they build now -- It seems nobody wants windows in their new houses any more...)

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by manfredo on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:55PM (#20072555)
I don't have a source off hand, but I've heard that the average lifespan of a Japanese house is 30-40 years. Sure, there are some historic houses and estates that have lasted for much longer than that, sometimes even centuries. They're built with the intent that a couple will raise a family in them and so there's not much reason for houses to last longer than that. Energy costs are also some of the highest in the world so getting the latest insulation technology and other efficiencies is important.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by uncletaco on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:16PM (#20072384)
Can you show your sources? And is it possible that you both can be right?
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by jrockway on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:19PM (#20072395)
This is what my friends who own houses in Tokyo tell me. Homes are bought with the assumption that they will be destroyed before the loan is up and that the bank will pay it off. This doesn't really make sense to me because there have been big earthquakes in Japan in my lifetime, and there isn't a massive housing crisis while every structure in the country is being rebuilt. So I don't fully understand this logic. But unlike the other comments replying to you, I can confirm that I've heard this many times.

My understanding is that while people in the US pay for housing with 15 or 30 year mortgages... in Japan the 100 year term is the most common. I am not sure if this has any effect on the market, but people certainly don't think "when I grow old, I'll have this big nest egg locked up in home equity". The bank owned the house when they were born, and it owns it when they die.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by sjg007 on Saturday June 01, 2019 @08:41PM (#20072730)
So it is basically a fixed "interest" leasehold market. Here the bank and leaseholders are the landlords but only in name only. So the money is in the land really and the option to build which is retained by the leaseholder. The bank is betting on the interest. If you borrow 20k at 100 years you end up paying $80,685.50 in interest. I guess there must be some magic number somewhere that makes this work nor why you don't have appreciation ... I guess because newer and better keeps being built.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by Aeolun on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:05AM (#20073768)
I just bought a house in Japan. No bank came to me with a 100 year term. It’s 20 - 35 years.

I guess it’s possible they’ll give that if you ask for it?

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by jayd16 on Saturday June 01, 2019 @11:03PM (#20073203)
I've heard the Japanese do not like "used" houses but I've never hear about the earthquake angle.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by bamboozled on Saturday June 01, 2019 @09:32PM (#20072903)
It's not that hey won't last exactly, but more that regulations have improved since the mid 90's and revised in 2004, so newer buildings are considered to be safer.

It's actually something people talk about when looking at renting a new apartment.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by rangibaby on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:48AM (#20073704)
The biggest change was in the 1980s (1981 iirc). Existing structures were grandfathered in, but the Kobe earthquake proved newer buildings were much, much safer which inspired people to rebuild their homes ASAP.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by kgwgk on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:18PM (#20072393)
There was a monster real estate bubble in the eighties (prices tripled), I think earthquakes were also a risk back then.