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Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by forgotmypw on Sunday May 26, 2019 @06:01PM (#20017844)
Allowing them to live in our presence and not trying to kill them? Rats are largely scavengers, their involvement in, e.g. black plague, has been disproven. If you don't leave food out and available, they won't eat it. In many countries around the world people live in harmony with other animals and don't try to wipe them out just because they are in the same space. Not to mention the amount of toxic poisons that end up harming us more than the rats that we are dumping int our own habitat to try to kill the rats.

It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat!

Same thing with bacteria. We've decided that sterility is the way to go, and gone on a mad spree trying to kill all bacteria, forgetting that bacteria is how we digest food, so again, poisoning ourselves and damaging our own health, threatening ourselves in the process.

These are all living organisms that we are closely related to, sharing the same environment as us, and anything we do to them comes back to us.

Not only that, but our bodies are tuned over millions of years to coexist with them, and a sterile environment with all kinds of synthetic poisons in it, once again, fucks us up.

There is also the issue that computers and AIs are learning from us the way children learn from their parents, and will one day treat us the same way that we treat the "lower" species.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by totalZero on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:13PM (#20018170)
Your assertion that rats weren't involved in the spread of the black plague is misleading.

Rats do spread disease. Some experts believe they were not the vector for the black plague, but there are several other (many of which are quite recent) outbreaks where rats have unquestionably spread disease.

Take a look for yourself:

https://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct.html

Personally I believe we should preserve human health over rat health, and a good way of doing that is to exterminate rats.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by darkpuma on Monday May 27, 2019 @02:15AM (#20019822)
> "It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat!"

I kindly invite you to rent a room at the shittiest motel in town and learn to live and let live with bed bugs.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by jfoutz on Monday May 27, 2019 @02:45AM (#20019945)
Also, fuck mosquitos.

I’m not a fan of spiders or cockroaches. I can adapt my behavior so we rarely interact.

But, uh, miserable bloodsuckers-I don’t think there is any common ground for us to share.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by michaelscott on Monday May 27, 2019 @03:34AM (#20020181)
Mosquitos are a legitimate, serious problem in some parts of the world as fatal disease vectors. I don't know enough about their role in the ecosystem to know whether it's okay to wipe them out, but considering the number of human lives they claim every year through spreading disease I'd happily go that route myself.
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by Kaiyou on Monday May 27, 2019 @10:36AM (#20022486)
As far as I know birds eat them. A lot. But then again, birds eat other stuff, too.
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by smegger001 on Monday May 27, 2019 @05:26AM (#20020658)
same with ticks. Fuck ticks. blood sucking assholes spreading dissease. Some species can cause paralyses in victims, others can induce meat allergyes, many carry a verity of hellish viral bacterial and protozoen infections.
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by tatami on Monday May 27, 2019 @04:09AM (#20020312)
I could live with them, they should just come down and take my blood.

But all they do is buzzing around my head when I try to sleep!

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by Tsubasachan on Monday May 27, 2019 @03:39AM (#20020202)
I am amazed at how efficient rats are. I put a garbage bag in my shed and 3 days later the only thing that was left was the plastic.

The government in their infinite wisdom hatched out a scheme were everyone has to pay per kilogram of produced waste so a lot of people were just dumping their trash. It was a 24/7 buffet for rats. Then, as only a country that has literally too much money can do, they sent out inspectors on to the streets to sift through the bags and fine people.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by harimau777 on Sunday May 26, 2019 @06:38PM (#20018028)
I definitely agree that trying to just eliminate nature from our cities is going to have negative consequences. And from what I understand, the mechanisms behind many of the ways we kill rodents (e.g. anticoagulant poison and sticky paper) seem inhumane.

I'll have to look into if there have been studies on more systemic approaches to managing animal populations. Things like changing how/where food waste is stored.

Would you oppose lethal approaches to rodent control if they were more limited and directed? For example, a warehouse getting a cat or setting out some mouse traps.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by WalterBright on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:04PM (#20018127)
I have this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Common-Sense-Pest-Control-Least-Toxic...

Sounds like what you're looking for. I've used its recommendations in the house I built, with good results. (For example, instead of foam I used a metal sill plate, which prevents insects from coming up through cracks in the foundation into the wood structure.)

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by jacquesm on Monday May 27, 2019 @02:33AM (#20019890)
Interesting! What kind of metal did you use and did you have to install some kind of sacrificial anode to ensure that it won't oxidize away over the decades?
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by WalterBright on Monday May 27, 2019 @03:06AM (#20020056)
I used stainless steel sheet. Where the anchor bolts were, a largish hole was punched in the sill plate so the stainless wasn't in contact with the iron, which would have resulted in galvanic corrosion.

The contractor groused about it, because he wasn't used to doing things that way. But he got excited about it after a while, and on his own fabricated stainless steel inserts that the windows would fit into that would prevent any leaks and rot around the windows. He was pretty proud of his work :-)

Another thing the book recommended was putting ground glass into the concrete mix, as rats won't chew it. But I didn't go that far.

The main thing is to make sure any gaps and vents have wire screens. Mice can get in where the plumbing enters the house, you can stop that by ramming steel wool between the pipe and the house.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by forgotmypw on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:56PM (#20018429)
Cats are very effective, and their smell acts as a deterrent.

Traps and poison are inhumane, cruel, and just bad karma, and usually come back to bite us somehow.

I think the solution is to tolerate and even appreciate the rats, and learn to share space with them.

Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by Consultant32452 on Sunday May 26, 2019 @08:25PM (#20018553)
Why is a rat trap less humane than intentionally bringing in a predator known for torturing its prey?
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by smegger001 on Monday May 27, 2019 @05:16AM (#20020610)
Depends on the trap I would say. One that generally rapidly kills is fine but say sticky traps are cruel. Traps where the animal is stuck in place unable to move and slowly dies of dehydration/starvation that is just sadistic.
Re:How some cities became rat-free zones by darkpuma on Monday May 27, 2019 @10:59PM (#20026880)
That's a pretty popular viewpoint to be honest. Glue traps aren't even particularly effective, and neither are they particularly reusable. So in addition to being cruel they just aren't a good deal for the money you'll spend.

Drown traps (using any number of mechanisms to dunk rodents into a bucket of water from which they cannot escape) might be a bit rough ethically though I think much better than glue traps. Additionally they're many times more effective, fully re-usable, and you can make them basically for free with a few scraps laying around in your garage. One method that works well on mice and other small rodents (though not so much on norway rats which are incredibly clever) is as simple as floating a layer of seeds on top of the water. The rodents jump in to get the seeds, not realizing that the seeds were floating on water. A bag of bird seed, a bucket and some water are all you need for that sort of trap and although death isn't instant, it's a lot faster than with a glue trap.