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Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @08:11AM (#19980266)
I am wondering if the huge IP theft is mostly propaganda similar to the one US uses before it starts a war or changes some government in other country.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by patentatt on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @08:58AM (#19980640)
As an IP lawyer who has been involved in several cases involving Chinese appropriation of trade secrets and/or patents ... it’s real. Smart companies don’t even try any more, just accept that if they do any business with any Chinese nationals, their secrets will be exfiltrated. And if you patent something, it will be used in China and there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s just an accepted cost of doing business these days because IP enforcement in China is still nonexistent. The courts are so corrupt and openly biased against any outsiders. The rule of law is not valued, plain and simple.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:35AM (#19980987)
Can you give a good example similar to what you experienced? The issue is that we read daily about ridiculous patents.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by shuckles on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @10:49AM (#19981773)
I have noticed that the “reader mode” feature in UC Browser, the most popular browser in China, directly lifted the JavaScript from a similar feature in an American company’s product. Internal bug references, and all.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:13AM (#19982063)
Interesting, the reader mode has many open source implementations. But I am sure you can find similar cases in ot6her countries, I was wondering some important case/example like China stealing Windows code and making their own not some small company there pirated some software, that happens in other places too.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by shuckles on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @12:06PM (#19982632)
UC Browser is developed by Alibaba, one of China’s biggest companies. It’s easy to spot instances of stolen JavaScript because it’s injected into the page. Who knows what else they’ve stolen. This is not an open source implementation we’re talking about.

There are rumors that much of Huawei’s network stack was stolen from Cisco and Juniper through government-mandated partnerships.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by AsyncAwait on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @04:07PM (#19984931)
> There are rumors that much of Huawei’s network stack was stolen from Cisco and Juniper

These rumors may make the U.S. feel good, but the reality is that Huawei has 5G tech that Cisco/Juniper do not. In fact, the U.S. does not even have 5G tech at the level the EU does, so maybe you just simply got out R&D'd?

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by shuckles on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @05:02PM (#19985457)
I was talking about backbone routing hardware. Wireless technology is a non-sequitur, and I’m not an expert so cannot comment. Ultimately, the parent was asking for example of “large” examples of IP theft, and this should surely count.

I can attempt to respond to some of your 5G comments. My outsider perspective is that many countries have the resources to develop this technology, and my guess is differences in timing are dominated by capital efficiency questions and not talent. Differences in cost probably come down to policy and subsidy regimes — and free appropriation of IP is only one of many kinds of subsidies a government can provide domestic firms.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by craigsmansion on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @08:37AM (#19980460)
It depends.

The most well-known and common form of "IP theft" is cheaply made Chinese knock-offs that are forgeries. That's trademark infringement. It's not that big of a problem.

What is an actual problematic form of "IP theft" is China appropriating trade-secrets.

The bulk of "IP theft" that is used to fuel the current war of words seems to be patent infringement. Patent infringement sounds problematic, but really isn't. Even though China can produce devices that infringe, they can't sell those goods back to areas of the world where patent enforcement isn't as lax. They can sell them in China and that's a large market, but:

- companies buying cheaply produced local copies weren't likely to buy the real thing in the first place.

- Local copies are of inferior quality. By the time the local copies approach the quality of the original, they will be priced in the same ballpark as the original (and the original will be on the next generation).

So yes, there is "IP theft" going on, but once again the term "IP" is being thrown around to obfuscate matters to support a political end and reality is quite a bit more complex but not as threatening as it's made out to be.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simonh on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:37AM (#19981010)
A lot of this takes the form of a Western company contracting a Chinese manufacturer to make some goods for it. The company pays for research and development, specialist tooling and such. They contract the factory to make 10,000 widgets. They then find thousands of the exact same widgets on the market in China. The factory just makes more and sells them directly.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @10:02AM (#19981254)
Is this illegal in China? If yes is there an example of someone trying to get justice for this?
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by patentatt on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:01AM (#19980656)
That ignores the advancing production capabilities and the vast grey market that moves goods into the US. That and the complacency of Amazon produce a situation where high quality knock offs can be made in China and find their way into the US market quite easily. Note: I’m speaking not of trademark infringement but patent infringement. It’s really no different. Patent infringement is problematic.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:09AM (#19980747)
And instead of blocking the import of those fake products or the ones that infringe some IP (hopefully after you prove that) the US is blocking Huawei because of security concerns and instead of trying to find if there are backdoors in Huawei products, discussing how can we detect this backdoors, compare this backdoors with the ones in US products we are trying to switch the narative to the cheap Chinese products that are imported by US companies into US.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by yogthos on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:02AM (#19980672)
My view is that IP is fundamentally a terrible idea and should be abolished. All it does is help incumbent companies and prevents competition.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:05AM (#19980700)
The initial idea had some merit but the implementation is terrible and most countries had no choice and had to implement the US copyright and related laws.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by thkim on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:23AM (#19980874)
This is a naive thinking. Advances in software industry are purely intellectual so it doesn't involve heavy cost, which is why open source idea can work and be argued that it promotes innovation. Say you are a pharmaceutical company developing a new drug, investing billions of dollars. If there is no IP, why do it? You need to wake up to reality.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:27AM (#19980920)
You could pay researchers with money from taxes, then you will get more research into important problems and less into rich people concerns like baldness and beauty creams.

Mathematicians,physicists also do a lot of research and they do not ask you to pay them to use their findings.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by thkim on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:37AM (#19981002)
You seem to confuse between basic science and applied science. What you are saying is government should direct resources to every research. Basically saying that planned economy is better off than market economy. I wouldn't say market economy is a complete solution but time and again it has been proven to work better than planned economy. And also, why do you look down on applications? They are what actually make people's life better.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by komali2 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @10:38AM (#19981643)
>What you are saying is government should direct resources to every research

Yea, this sounds like an awesome idea. Let's do it.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @10:22AM (#19981477)
What I do not like is the idea that medical research is directed into what makes more money, I would be ok if this happens with beauty products but not with critical medicine.

Say you find a cure for X, how will you price it as a company? You put some variables into an equation and attempt to get the maximum profit not the maximum health for the society. This could mean letting poor people to die or suffer without a cure.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by tathougies on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:19AM (#19982139)
> Mathematicians,physicists also do a lot of research and they do not ask you to pay them to use their findings.

What? of course they do. The moment a physical reaction or process is applied to industry, you can bet someone will file a patent.

At engineering school, it is common for professors, students, etc, to patent technology they invent. Colleges have entire departments.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday May 23, 2019 @11:59AM (#19992906)
... which is an unfortunate example of privatization of a public good. The public pays for research, and an individual captures the profits.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by tathougies on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:19PM (#19993736)
Not all research is publicly funded. Historically speaking, most of it was not, until relatively recently. I don't disagree that publicly funded research should be public, but I think applying that universally to say that all patents are evil is rather strong and leaves no room for private investment.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:18PM (#19996073)
"Relatively recently" here means pre-WWII. Basic research has been heavily reliant on government funding for decades. Before that, basic research was on a much smaller scale.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by Zak on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @10:57AM (#19981886)
Central economic planning doesn't have an especially good track record. While one could certainly argue that market economies put a lot of resources into things that aren't important or good for the world, they've done better over the past 100 years at not having people starving to death.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by simion314 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:22AM (#19982176)
The historical example is not such a clear because there are other variables like wars that caused large destruction and countries that lost the war had to pay damages.

What I am thinking is this, the smart people that want to become scientists do not do it to make money for some company, they do it for passion and help people in the case of people that learned to become doctors and research medical treatments. You need a system that finds this smart people when they graduate and place them in research institution paid by the public. You can have private companies research other stuff but don't put all the core research into private companies that are motivated of making profit. You have for example the military founded by tons of money that some of them go into research, my suggestion is have health research similarly prioritized as the military. You could even pay private research institution but when you pay for research all the results get put in the public domain.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by yogthos on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:56AM (#19982533)
That's big news to major American companies like Amazon and Walmart that have completely embraced central planning.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by Zak on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @12:17PM (#19982742)
We may not be talking about the same thing. I'm referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by floatboth on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:12PM (#19983217)
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by floatboth on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:10PM (#19983205)
Companies don't develop new drugs, they have no incentives to invest into research when it's vastly more profitable to just increase the price of old drugs, patent drugs someone else developed, pay doctors to promote their drugs, etc. Most of the actual medical research is funded by taxes.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by esyir on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @02:44PM (#19984168)
Please read into the drug development process and clinical trials. You might be rather surprised.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by teddyh on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:41PM (#19983509)
This is far too big an issue to get into in this very limited forum, but suffice it to say the question is not as cut and dry as you appear to think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_copyright

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by yogthos on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:11PM (#19997287)
It really is. Hoarding knowledge is harmful to humanity as a whole. Period.
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by yogthos on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @09:29AM (#19980934)
Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by saxonww on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @05:22PM (#19985662)
I think it's a fine idea, but qualifying for protection and the exclusivity terms are maybe out of touch with reality.

Software patents in particular shouldn't get 20 years. That made sense in general in the 19th century; it's an eternity today for software. Similarly, the extra exclusivity opportunities drugmakers have (mashups, etc) may be too friendly now.

Re:ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei by jjcc on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:49PM (#19983592)
It's quite mixed and complicated. US government/media exaggerated and distort the situation or the nature of the problem intentionally or unintentionally that mislead Western public. A lot of Chinese admit that there are problems due to many factors. Things are already improved significantly compared to 20 years ago. But the progress will follow it's own pace, not external pressure.