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Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by b_tterc_p on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:21AM (#19970929)
This doesn’t make any sense. It’s kind of funny. His statements imply that he’ll show the US by still being a powerful business... but I don’t see how that changes anything about it’s relationship with the US?

I think he’s just putting on a strongman face because otherwise this is going to substantially weaken Huawei as a company.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:59AM (#19971404)
This is probably necessary for his political survival in China.

Huawei’s leadership bungled their position by overplaying their hand. Their mistakes have escalated into an international disagreement and a problem for Beijing. He needs to make sure sacrificing him is more costly than fighting Washington. Positioning himself with the public as a nationalistic martyr is one way to do that.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by swordsmith on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @02:02PM (#19972851)
Someone who reads between the lines
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by FooBarWidget on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:38AM (#19971143)
Huawei seems to see the US bans as a way to bully Huawei, and perhaps a way to bully China as well. Some of the Chinese people I know think that the US wants Chinese to stay poor, that the US is jealous of the Chinese's success. The press release is basically painting the story of the underdog resisting against bullies, and thriving against all odds.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by space_fountain on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:26PM (#19971696)
I definitely think some Americans have exactly that opinion.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by monetus on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:47PM (#19971889)
There are americans that think the earth is flat. I doubt the median educated american would want a billion+ people to stay poor.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:58PM (#19972002)
The 'median educated american' [sic] is not quite 'your average American' which is usually the demographic used for such statements.

It's all about 'winning' now I guess and for one to win all others have to lose.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by monetus on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:21PM (#19972251)
I use median, because thinking of the guy in the middle of the spectrum seems to make more sense than averaging it into an amorphous person. I like math, is all.. I'm not sure what your statement about winning means, are you okay? Negative neuroplasticity is a thing, dont despair. This situation is bullshit, I'm not sure if any superorganism is really winning in the long term. Some individuals maybe.

Edit: I maybe should have used worldly, rather than educated; not quite sure of the precise word I was looking for. I didn't mean college educated.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:25PM (#19972321)
It's not just median, it's median + educated that's a much thinner slice than Average American.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by monetus on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @07:21PM (#19976159)
Yes, indeed. Despite having commented thus far, I feel like debating whether the average american would be sadistic isn't very useful. Absent influence in the government, we (americans) don't have agency in regards to this. Neither do the chinese. I imagine the average in both countries is inundated with propaganda as well.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by bruinjoe on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:44PM (#19971865)
Jelous? We've lost so many jobs due to free trade. They can call it any thing they want but the trade deficit cannot be explained by jelousy.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by hungryhobo on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:49PM (#19971913)
That's china's problem how?
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by seppin on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:19PM (#19972230)
Because it's a literal wealth transfer from the American middle class to China. Yes growth has supplied some of that wealth, but America and Europe have done the rest. And no one asked the respective populations of the lower middle class if they wanted to give millions of Chinese a better life at the expense of theirs, it just happened.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by rifung on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @02:02PM (#19972857)
If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that the US middle class suffered as a result of trying to help the Chinese?

That would make sense if as a whole the US economy started stagnating because of trade with China but as far as I know the US GDP has still been growing.

Given that the US is still as a whole doing well, I'd argue that the reason the middle/lower class isn't doing well isn't because of China but because of the imbalance in where these profits have gone. In other words, I think it's wealth inequality that is the real issue.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by solotronics on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @02:07AM (#19978245)
And what exactly caused the wealth inequality? The CEO types closed American factories and moved production to China. This is great for the stock of said company, the CEO, the board of directors, and China. Wait a minute... this really sucks if you are were a worker in the American factory that closed! Hey at least they can buy cheap Chinese stuff at Walmart with their unemployment checks.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by seppin on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:30AM (#19998748)
> And what exactly caused the wealth inequality?

I never mentioned inequality. The purchasing power (and wage) of the average American and European working has either declined or stagnated. What China has done pulling millions out of poverty is amazing, taking nothing away from that. Lets not pretend those BS 8% growth numbers year after year did that, a lot of that wealth came from the west.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by seppin on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:31PM (#19997702)
> result of trying to help the Chinese?

No, I said the American and European middle class has suffered while the Chinese lower class has risen. And in a democracy, large policy decisions that affect the economy and your standard of life are voted upon.

No one ever voted for globalization.

> US GDP has still been growing.

Not at a rate high enough to sustain an increase in quality of life. Yes there are other factors, but anything below 4% is a crisis.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by tepidandroid on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @03:35PM (#19973995)
A huge portion of the profits China has obtained from becoming America's manufacturing base has gone directly back to America in the form of US bond purchases. This has been the case going back to its inception into the WTO in 2001 [1, ex. 6]. The American economy, and thus its middle class, have directly benefitted from this in the form of greater and cheaper capital liquidity.

In addition, this deficit you speak of (that has been characterized by Trump as "stealing" from America, a laughable notion), actually shrinks to almost nothing when adjusted for US goods sold in China [1, ex.16, 17]. This is comparing four categories of goods and services exchanged between the US and China (1: services sold through subsidiaries, 2: services imports, 3: goods through subsidiaries and 4: goods through trade). This is a much more complete and honest comparison. Trump has for some reason decided to only focus on the last point (goods sold through trade).

The US sells 67B worth of services to China through subsidiaries, 56B of services imports, 213B of goods through subsidiaries and 112B of goods through trade. In other words, adjusted for U.S sales of goods and services in China, the trade deficit actually amounts to a U.S _surplus_ of something in the ballpark 20B a year.

Where is the stealing? Where is the zero-sum "wealth transfer"?

[1] https://www.kkr.com/sites/default/files/KKR_White_Paper_51-1...

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by mahkeiro on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:46PM (#19972620)
And everyday your President brags about the fact that US is back to full employment. So if these jobs were somehow back that you would need an army of Mexicans... Not sure this is the expected result, for Trump supporter.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by addicted on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:08PM (#19971504)
Well, to be fair to the founder, the US has already rolled back the restrictions it placed on Huawei, giving it a 90 day reprieve instead of imposing it immediately as they did earlier.

So clearly Huawei actually does have some leverage here that the US did not originally factor in.

That being said, I don’t see how it benefits Huawei for their founder to take this combative stance unless they think that the US is doing this solely to kneecap Huawei and there is no chance they will allow them to compete even if the allegations are proven untrue.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by xfs on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:40PM (#19971832)
> I don’t see how it benefits Huawei for their founder to take this combative stance unless they think that the US is doing this solely to kneecap Huawei and there is no chance they will allow them to compete even if the allegations are proven untrue.

That's a strange position. Please help me understand.

The allegations are about national security threats. How does one prove his innocence in general? Huawei did what they can with the British by showing the source code and build processes, which was obviously far from enough. The US has gone out of its way to pressure its allies to ban Huawei, following a long and hard media campaign, ending with a deadly blow on Huaweis supply chain. The writing is on the wall. If the US is not doing this to cripple Huawei then what for?

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by b_tterc_p on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:11PM (#19971539)
I'm not sure I would attribute that to Huawei leverage so much as US Telecoms depending on them in the short term and needing time to switch. But yeah.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by robbiemitchell on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:19PM (#19971630)
I'd call that leverage
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by majia on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:55PM (#19972741)
Huawei is not taking a combative stance. It’s just Guardian took a few out of context quotes to make him looks like combative.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by sehugg on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:04PM (#19971461)
The relationship between Huawei and the Chinese government is a little blurry: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3372669
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:38PM (#19972505)
Huawei's controlling ownership structure is opaque. They might be controlled by the PLA, or maybe just the Ren family by themselves. Employees get shares, but nothing in terms of controlling ownership, and it is all cashed out when they leave.

On the other hand, even if Huawei is controlled by the PLA, so what? They are under Chinese jurisdiction anyways, so the Chinese government could already do pretty much whatever it wanted to with it. The same for an American company under American jurisdiction.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by xfs on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @08:21PM (#19976529)
I did some research. Huawei's ownership system is so radical that probably no one in the West and few in China realized what it is. It is collective ownership in the socialist sense, or a commune. The paradox of this kind of ownership system is that the company is simultaneously owned by everyone and no one in particular, meaning all revenues and profits go back to all employees and reinvestment and no outside investors and financial capitals get anything, while nobody in particular can say I'll quit and take my share of the company - there is no 'private property' in the company.

Legally the ownership of the company is set up to be 1% for Ren Zhengfei and 99% for a owner's committee under a legally sanctioned trade union. It's a strange setup because trade unions in China are lame ducks and usually don't do anything, but Huawei's ownership is set up this way so that the trade union 'owns' 99% of the company to represent the collective ownership, which is not what trade unions were legally intended for.

It's Socialism in One Company, the leadership does not own anything but has the power to decide how to use everything, and it exploits its employee like the SU and China did in their early stage. This is unfathomable to the West so the only conclusion by the media could be opaque and government-owned.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by 0815test on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @08:30PM (#19976576)
If the employees only "own" part of the company while they're employed in good standing, that's not ownership at all. They're just leasing that share, and paying for it quite dearly with 996-ICU work, for that matter. While control and decision-making authority is definitely not held by those employees.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by xfs on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @08:42PM (#19976664)
The employees do own permanent 'shares' and enjoy proportional dividends but they cannot liquidate the shares at market price when they quit the company. This is socialist collective ownership for you. Like I said, the employees paradoxically do not own the company in the private property sense but in the collective sense. You can say the same thing for any socialist countries. It would be naive to judge it as simple kleptocracy.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by bjourne on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:28PM (#19971712)
As is the relationship between the US government and The Trump Organization...
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by seppin on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:20PM (#19972243)
Poor comparison. If Apple and Motorola was run by the DoD that would be better.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by 8note on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @03:05PM (#19973663)
is it really? Donald Trump runs both for his own profit as he sees fit.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by StreamBright on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:28AM (#19971005)
Not to mention that Cisco and other networking equipment vendors benefit from the Huawei ban.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by close04 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:30PM (#19971737)
Make our backdoors great again...

For the eager downvoters out there, consider that (to my knowledge) no actual case for Huawei backdoors was made so far (although we can all be pretty sure they exist). At the same time Cisco routers giving root access with a specific private key is considered a simple "could happen to anyone" bug. So yes, it's what I said above: someone will have backdoors in the infrastructure. From US perspective it better be the home team.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by StreamBright on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:51PM (#19971930)
Actually there were several cases of Huawei backdoors, more recently found by Vodafone in Italy. I am a big fan of China but I think the problem is two fold regarding Huawei. China makes it very hard for foreign companies to enter the Chinese market and they often ignore IP. Having backdoors in networking equipment is a issue and you rightfully point out that the Chinese are not the only ones implementing such things.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by close04 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @02:04PM (#19972886)
What I meant was a case for a "backdoor" rather than the typical "it's a bug" that you see with every other manufacturer.

I didn't want to go into the way China does business. Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the justification used here.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by StreamBright on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @07:39AM (#19980034)
Sure but isn't a backdoor a kind of bug that left there on purpose?
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by close04 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:29AM (#19989373)
> on purpose

Then that's the case that would have to be made I guess.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by ASalazarMX on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:50AM (#19971306)
Could this be an instance of "saving face" as people do in East Asia?
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by samsonradu on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:05PM (#19971472)
Is “saving face” an (Eastern) Asia thing? (genuine question)
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by mc32 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:13PM (#19971565)
Saving face is on a continuum. In some cultures it’s more important than others. In some it has more impact on day to day lives. Is some cultures it encourages people to take responsibility and resign to “save face for a company or the state” even when it’s not that person’s fault but rather the fault of the position.

So yeah I think the majority of societies practice this to lesser and greater degrees. Some have elaborate customs around it, in others it’s almost imperceptible.

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by eej71 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:18PM (#19971619)
I always find this distinction interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-Shame-Fear_spectrum_of_c...

Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by jasonshen on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:28PM (#19971719)
There is a term in Chinese that means "lose face". I remember my parents saying it to me when I misbehaved. I made them lose face to their friends. Save face emerged as a way to avoid losing face: https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/lose-face.html
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by shaobo on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:25PM (#19971677)
It is an everybody thing, why else would the phrase enter popular usage.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by sct202 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:29PM (#19972380)
At it's basic level saving face is pretty close to minimizing embarrassment.
Re:US has underestimated Huawei, says founder by SoReadyToHelp on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:15PM (#19971592)
No, they just do it in slightly different ways than Americans so it's framed as something exotic and weird instead of typical human behaviour.