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Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by CryoLogic on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:36PM (#19931615)
Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well.

- Get a summer job "because your family needed money"

- Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions"

- Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x"

- CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family"

etc. etc.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by crazygringo on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:47PM (#19931749)
The article says:

> It would be calculated using 15 factors, like the relative quality of the student’s high school and the crime rate and poverty level of the student’s home neighborhood. The score would not be reported to the student, only to college officials.

None of those suggest they're linked to individual actions like your examples are -- and that makes sense since the SAT can know the student's schools and addresses but little else.

And I don't think sending your kid to a worse school is gaming the system... because they'll probably do worse.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by Balgair on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:43PM (#19932342)
Hold up.

This adversity score is advertized so that it will help out poorer and more abused students, in an emperical way.

But what this is actually telling schools is if the person is rich-ish or not. Basically, can this family pay the bills and are they likely to attend football games and be donating alumni?

Call me cynical, but if anything, this is going to further segregate the schools towards the rich-ish.

This will give schools a guise under which they can say: 'Look, we're diverse!' But it will allow the space (and the ML inputs) for the schools to maximize profits.

I know that you are very unlikely to be able to maximize all diversity at once. Like, admitting more black women may come at the cost of matriculation rates for transgender people, or more Hispanic people in STEM classes may come at the cost of Asian people in humanties courses, etc. Nothing is perfect.

But this really feels like a Trojan Horse.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by SeanAppleby on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:54PM (#19931840)
You could do three years at a great school and then cap off with one year at a bad school to grab the diploma.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by nostrademons on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:04PM (#19931951)
Shows on your transcript. Presumably would be counted as a great school.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by lotu on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:36PM (#19932263)
That is going to look like you fucked up horribly at great school and where going to get expelled but managed to avoid it by transfering.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by WalterSear on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:16PM (#19933331)
Surely you mean "had to leave due to systemic oppression".
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by nostrademons on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:04PM (#19931940)
Most of the 15 factors are reported here, 4 paragraphs down:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/adversity-score-sat-exam-colleg...

"Neighborhood environment will take into account crime rate, poverty rate, housing values and vacancy rate. Family environment will assess what the median income is of where the student's family is from; whether the student is from a single parent household; the educational level of the parents; and whether English is a second language. High school environment will look at factors such as curriculum rigor, free-lunch rate and AP class opportunities."

These are hard to game, and in many cases if you do game them it's a "Mission Fucking Accomplished" situation. Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing, nor are they willing to put their kids in bad schools with poor people. If they are, great, that neighborhood probably won't stay poor with shitty schools for long.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by lukejduncan on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:47PM (#19933680)
Not exactly the same thing, but related --

So the San Francisco school district gives priority to certain neighborhoods roughly based these criteria and gentrification has been a problem. Wealthy folks move into historically poor neighborhoods and benefit from lagging statistics in school choice.

>> Anne Zimmerman, a stay-at-home parent and writer, had what others call, sometimes derisively, the “golden ticket.” She and her husband, who works in advertising, moved into their two-bedroom rental in the Potrero Hill neighborhood a decade ago, without realizing their address granted them priority in the school lottery.

>> This year, their daughter, Vera, was offered admission to their first-choice kindergarten, one of the most requested in the city. The school is 37 percent white and 21 percent low-income. Districtwide, 15 percent of students are white and 55 percent are low-income.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/us/san-francisco-school-s...

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by leetcrew on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:20PM (#19932125)
> Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing

sure, but I don't think any existing laws would prevent them from just buying a second house in a bad part of their home town and using that address for applications and I can't see how the College Board could reliably detect this.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by nostrademons on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:39PM (#19932294)
Your primary residence is listed on your tax returns and determines which school district you're entitled to attend. Misrepresenting it can result in criminal charges, and schools do check:

https://whyy.org/segments/the-money-shot-how-school-district...

They'd have a tough time explaining to colleges why their transcript is from Good School District Across Town when they listed their address as Dumpy Neighborhood With Bad Schools.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by ilamont on Thursday May 16, 2019 @04:40PM (#19932969)
Residency scams are a long-standing issue around Boston and in Boston itself (parents of suburban kids attempting to get their kids into exam schools like Boston Latin). This article explains the difficulties and expenses associated with catching families trying to get around the residency requirements: https://www.patriotledger.com/x792538354/Quincy-schools-crac...
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by prepend on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:09PM (#19933254)
Rich people go to private schools so they don’t care what address have. Buying a $5k shithole house in your same city and county won’t affect your taxes and won’t affect school distribution so no one is investigating that except the SAT police.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by jedberg on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:42PM (#19931673)
> CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family"

Colleges are pretty wise to this trick. You aren't the first to think of it.

Relatedly is legally emancipating a child so they have "no parental support" and get a bunch of grants. That doesn't work either.

I suspect the colleges would get good as sussing out all those other tricks too.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by ben_jones on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#19931702)
Just like they were able to suss out all the student athletes who didn't actually do anything?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by javagram on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:53PM (#19931832)
Considering the FBI busted the ringleader of the scam and a bunch of people are going to jail, this seems like an example of the system working.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by droithomme on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:16PM (#19933328)
As you say, the FBI busted the scam which went on for years (decades?) and the colleges all say they had no idea about it, right? So his claim that the colleges weren't able to suss this out is absolutely correct in 100% of all known cases, right?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by oh_sigh on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:04PM (#19933201)
The FBI only busted them because a person they were investigating for a completely separate issue told them about this in hopes to get a more lenient sentence. So yes, it is the system working, but we got very lucky the FBI stumbled upon this information.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by graeme on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:45PM (#19931721)
That was bribery. The scheme was to bribe people who normally would do the sussing out.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by jedberg on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:45PM (#19931718)
There will of course be false negatives.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by DtnB on Thursday May 16, 2019 @06:29PM (#19934084)
its not so much 'sussing out tricks' as a blanket ban on anything that can be abused. My parents made roughly 100k when I was going to school but they were terrible with money and have a lot of children. The 'expected contribution' was actually quite high but I never received anything from my parents at all. Thus, I have much in the way of student loans.

Not to take away from your point but the colleges having to work against these sort of tricks has a lot of unintended consequences.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by president on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:43PM (#19931692)
I can't wait to launch my Adversity Summer Camp startup
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by PorterDuff on Thursday May 16, 2019 @06:27PM (#19934071)
That's brilliant.

There'll be a boom market for Adversity Coaches.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by _bxg1 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:37PM (#19931626)
Oh god. The original idea sounds good on paper, but, oh god.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by theseatoms on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:39PM (#19931653)
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by max76 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:47PM (#19931745)
This was a huge theme throughout the television series The Wire. Here is a clip that specifically shows Goodhart's law working in education.

https://youtu.be/_ogxZxu6cjM?t=62

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by xienze on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#19931709)
None of that’s going to make any difference. Let’s be real here, it’s going to be based on race alone (and perhaps being gay or trans). White or Asian? You don’t suffer any adversity. Black or Hispanic? Congratulations, your score just improved by 200 points.

This just sounds like the SAT board doing what school admissions boards already do: decreasing or increasing scores based on race.

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-rac...

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by didgeoridoo on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:54PM (#19931843)
How would you reliably capture race, or sexual orientation, or gender identification — or even income — on a self-reported metric with no third-party validation? They aren't talking about sending the College Board your tax returns.

Realistically, this will be based on ZIP code and registered high school. Information that's already publicly-available. This changes nothing except potentially making neighborhood-level affirmative action more politically palatable.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by xienze on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:02PM (#19931918)
Sexual orientation, yeah they might not be able to get that one. But here's the factors they're using: https://twitter.com/i/moments/1129009648214921216

I do believe with just a few pieces of the information they're taking into consideration (namely, neighborhood, if you have a single parent, and if you're ESL [not sure if they're talking about the child being ESL or the parents]) you could reliably determine if the child is black or Hispanic and therefore worthy of an adversity score boost. Everyone else, get stuffed. They may also be making a big show of using these factors that "technically" don't identify the test taker's race and instead are just disregarding them and relying solely on the self-reported racial information provided when taking the test. Who knows? But I highly doubt you'll find a lot of poor white kids in West Virginia getting boosted scores via this scheme.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by scott_s on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:05PM (#19933212)
> But I highly doubt you'll find a lot of poor white kids in West Virginia getting boosted scores via this scheme.

That is exactly what I expect to happen - as well as poor kids who happen to belong to racial minorities. The College Board published the criteria they will use to calculate the score. Race is not one of the criteria. But you're saying that race will not only be used, but be the primary criteria. So, let's be clear: you're saying the College Board is lying. Which, I can't prove they are not, but I'm inclined to trust them over your claims.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by Meekro on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:49PM (#19933707)
Just to nitpick a bit, race is one of the optional criteria. The school decides whether they want the College Board to include it.

"The program aimed to measure the challenges students faced. It created an expected SAT score based on socioeconomic factors including, if schools chose to add it, race." [1]

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/sat-to-give-students-adversity-...

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by brlewis on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:42PM (#19933635)
Can you please link to the College Board's list of criteria? In the article I could only find two examples out of 15.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by nostrademons on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:52PM (#19933742)
Been posted a couple times in subthreads here, including the grandparent-post:

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1129009648214921216

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sat-adversity-score-college-boa...

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by brlewis on Thursday May 16, 2019 @06:01PM (#19933843)
Thanks. CBS seems much better than the NYT on this.

Quote:

These factors are first divided into three categories: neighborhood environment, family environment and high school environment.

Each of the three categories has five sub-indicators that are indexed in calculating each student's adversity score. Neighborhood environment will take into account crime rate, poverty rate, housing values and vacancy rate. Family environment will assess what the median income is of where the student's family is from; whether the student is from a single parent household; the educational level of the parents; and whether English is a second language. High school environment will look at factors such as curriculum rigor, free-lunch rate and AP class opportunities. Together these factors will calculate an individual's adversity score on a scale of one to 100.

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by didgeoridoo on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:07PM (#19931989)
Thanks for the link. I would honestly be quite astounded if they were using individual-level reporting instead of using public data captured at the census tract level. Do you have any information about where the "family-level" data are coming from?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by layoutIfNeeded on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:49PM (#19931783)
How do they determine one’s race in the US? Is there a central database where everyone gets a record at birth? Otherwise what stops me from reporting myself as black?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by mcphage on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:51PM (#19931811)
Nothing, although if colleges accepted you under the assumption that you reported who you were honestly, and then later found out that you weren’t who you claimed to be, you might find your acceptances revoked.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by prepend on Thursday May 16, 2019 @05:15PM (#19933321)
Probably not. I remember a story of someone who did this [0] and nothing happened.

I can only imagine the terrifyingly embarrassing situations where people of a race are challenged to prove their race and flip out because they are their race.

[0] https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains...

Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by layoutIfNeeded on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:58PM (#19931876)
How would they find out my race? Based on the looks? So they would count Michael Jackson as “white”? What if a person looks white but has black ancestors?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by mcphage on Thursday May 16, 2019 @04:15PM (#19932689)
If you apply for a scholarship based on your heritage, how do they decide if you qualify?
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by knolax on Thursday May 16, 2019 @06:42PM (#19934195)
The Census collects racial information that most people answer with responses they believe to be truthful. IIRC in WW2 it was used to identify Japanese-Americans for internment.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by azeotropic on Thursday May 16, 2019 @06:45PM (#19934216)
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by qntty on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#19931703)
This is already happening. The difference is that it's only happening at elite schools that take a "holistic" approach to admissions already. Now, less elite schools will join in the fun.
Re:SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships by babyslothzoo on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:51PM (#19931808)
Nails it, there are so many avenues for abuse with this and they will be abused accordingly.