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Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Saturday May 11, 2019 @11:02PM (#19889848)
In many ways, the piece is basically a story about someone young and naive becoming an adult, so to speak. That process gets conflated with "working for Microsoft."

I'm a former military wife. The military does a lot of moving around. Affairs are common when spouses are separated. Etc.

So that kind of thing is hardly something peculiar to Microsoft.

It also sounds like she is European and speaks English as a second language. So going to Seattle for a while was possibly a case of culture shock. That also shouldn't be attributed to Microsoft per se.

I spent most of my early life in the city I was born in. The first new place I moved as an adult was a horrendous shock. It was trial by fire and I was so, so miserable and I hated that place. I blamed that place.

It took me years to realize that place actually treated me pretty well and the real problem was the shock of leaving everything I had ever known, so I would have been miserable anywhere. It wasn't the place per se.

She seems to make an effort to not be too blamey of Microsoft and to express her gratitude for the good parts, but the framing really fails to be evenhanded about this. Starting with the title, it attributes a very ordinary growing up experience to becoming disillusioned with this one company.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by mettamage on Sunday May 12, 2019 @05:36AM (#19890977)
She definitely seems European. And I can see that some of it is a becoming an adult story but a part of it isn't. A part of it really is about the corporate culture in Microsoft.

I've worked at startups and universities and I never had to deal with:

> The people I had on my team, were extremely closed minded. Most of them with many years of experience working in a corporation, so even more closed minded, only caring about their manager’s approval.

> I actually cared about my role, I cared about the people we were doing the Connect event for more than for my career and no one seemed to understand that.

> I found a job fairly easily with a similar salary, where they didn’t expect me to work 24/7.

I've worked long hours at a startup, but not like she is describing. The startup wasn't part of my identity, I didn't need to play politics. All I did was dev dev dev and some more dev. The communication overhead was low. Compared to her story, I had a dream job. Except that I didn't, it had good parts, and it had frustrating parts. Teaching at a coding school is more like a dream job since it doesn't feel like work and people pay you for it, except that it stifles career growth.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by ip26 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @06:56AM (#19891203)
She definitely seems European

Seems? She worked out of the Warsaw office. Not many Americans there, I expect.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by enedil on Monday May 13, 2019 @01:09AM (#19896560)
Does that imply there are no people but Americans and Europeans? Why don't you simply check where is she from? It's quite easy to check that she has polish name, speaks fluent polish, so I guess she is in fact polish. But why did you feel it's important to mention America here?
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by kerbalspacepro on Monday May 13, 2019 @01:53PM (#19901828)
Are you made that they didn't leave open the possibility that she was Australian, a Kiwi or an Afrikaner?
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by hamburglar on Sunday May 12, 2019 @01:43AM (#19890368)
Seems to me it's a story about someone who's too impressed with a lot of superficial stuff. The appearance of a "perfect life", business travel, expensive hotels, uber rides (?), overpriced seattle apartments with a great view that you can't actually afford, etc. The irony is that these things are all rather unimpressive to those that actually have them within reach, so citing them as evidence of your lavish lifestyle tends to mean you don't actually have one.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by _0nac on Sunday May 12, 2019 @02:44AM (#19890542)
It's all relative. I spent six years at university without ever taking a single taxi and I still consider Uber rides a luxury, because I can also take the bus for a quarter of the price or bike for free.

Also, as the OP mentions, the trap of getting used to nice things is that while you soon stop appreciating them, you will feel their loss quite painfully.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by stoolpigeon on Sunday May 12, 2019 @07:31AM (#19891295)
I think to the typical Pole - this is all pretty big stuff and very indicative of living a life that is not available to most people.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by hamburglar on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:05AM (#19890760)
There's a huge difference between a luxury and something that indicates you have achieved a lavish and impressive lifestyle. A cup of coffee at starbucks is a luxury.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by jpatokal on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:19AM (#19890794)
Lavish and impressive is also relative. Your original statement about "these things are all rather unimpressive to those that actually have them within reach" is tautological: having a yacht with a helipad is not going to be particularly impressive to anyone else docked next to me in St Tropez, even if it puts all of us in the global 0.01%.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by hamburglar on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:25AM (#19890807)
I think there's a subtlety in my point that you're missing. When you can just barely manage a yacht with a helipad, you're impressed with yourself for being that successful. When you can comfortably afford it, you cease to consider it something to boast about.

But yes, your point is valid: it's all relative.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by phs318u on Sunday May 12, 2019 @05:28AM (#19890954)
Off topic warning.

> A cup of coffee are starbucks is a luxury.

In Melbourne, Australia a coffee at Starbucks is considered:

1. A sign that you’re a tourist.

2. A sign that you’re a masochist.

3. A cry for help.

4. All of the above.

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself :)

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by hamburglar on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:00PM (#19893748)
:) Calling it a luxury isn't a judgment on whether or not it's any good. It just means its an expensive thing you don't actually need.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by code_duck on Saturday May 18, 2019 @07:24PM (#19950287)
For me, in Denver, it means that it is 5:30 and nobody else is open yet.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by dreamcompiler on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:31AM (#19892489)
In Seattle, the corporate home of Starbucks, it's exactly the same :-)
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by enedil on Sunday May 12, 2019 @07:51AM (#19891356)
Care to explain?
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by phs318u on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:19AM (#19891450)
A joke in poor taste. Melbournians are notorious coffee snobs. As jpatokal said, locals wouldn’t be caught dead in a Starbucks. Basically if the cup is taller than 4 fingers 8-10cm or the ingredients include anything other than coffee, water and milk, or it was made by percolating - then it’s not coffee as far as we’re concerned. It’s either dishwater or a confection of some sort. It may be a fact that Melbourne has more coffee shops per capita than any other place on earth.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by js2 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @10:04AM (#19891962)
Those rules seem to eliminate both Turkish and Cuban coffee. That would be a shame.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by phs318u on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:34PM (#19894391)
Yeah, sorry - a modicum of sugar is allowed :)

(I love my Saturday morning Turkish)

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by karianna on Monday May 13, 2019 @04:08AM (#19897116)
Wellington, NZ would like to have a word
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by jpatokal on Sunday May 12, 2019 @07:56AM (#19891375)
Melbourne is a mecca of coffee snobbery, and most locals wouldn't be caught dead in a Starbucks. (Although you need to try pretty hard even to find one.)
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by moogly on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:48AM (#19891865)
Australia is one of the only markets where Starbucks' global domination strategy failed horribly due to several factors (I'm not an Aussie so I can't explain the cultural differences). IIRC, in 6-7 years, they opened ~100 locations only to close over 60 of them. Aussies tend to deride the chain and Starbucks themselves have pivoted and tend to mostly cater to tourists so as not to go under completely.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by lozenge on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:28AM (#19890812)
I think you are missing the perspective of somebody in a relatively low salary country where the US is almost out of reach and visiting it /regularly/ is almost unheard of.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by Aeolun on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:02AM (#19892301)
It sounds like you’d have to be in the 1% before this could be something you can casually afford.

At least is still sounds pretty crazy to me.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by lame88 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:28AM (#19892463)
I wrote a longer response to this, but forget it. Suffice to say, you're conflating your experience with hers, you're generalizing away the problem, and you're making conjectures with little basis. This is typical material for top ranked HN comments, which irresponsibly go beyond skepticism to just blanket dismiss concerns when Big Co's reputation is on the line. This argument boils down to "that's how it is".
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:50AM (#19892619)
I am not blanket dismissing her concerns, nor am I making the argument that "that's how it is."

I'm quite surprised this has gotten so many upvotes. I generally do not feel I am responsible for how other people react to my comments. I certainly don't run around trying to figure out how to be the top comment.

I'm a demographic outlier here. I try to give my point of view as best I can, knowing that it will often be neither respected nor appreciated.

If people want to talk about BigCo, they are free to do so. But understanding how much of her story can be reasonably attributed to the company and how much to other things is the best way to criticize a company, if that is your desire. If you blame them for everything, people stop listening and won't take even legitimate criticisms seriously.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by lame88 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:09PM (#19892725)
Yes nuance in discerning between these things is important but your response's focus didn't acknowledge any merit of what she had to say about her direct experiences with Microsoft in particular. And your account has huge karma count of 18000 over only a year and a half. Are you really that surprised that this ended up at the top? Is your POV that often not respected?
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:27PM (#19892842)
Yes, I am really surprised. I think most of my karma comes from posting articles, not from my comments.

My opinion is somewhat respected on specific topics, such as homelessness. This article is not on a subject where I expected anyone to care one whit what I thought.

Plenty of my comments are initially met with downvotes or strong criticism. I participate here a lot because I'm medically handicapped and don't get out much, not because I have any fantasies that the world is particularly interested in my opinions.

I generally figure if the world were strongly interested in my opinions, my various websites would have more traffic and make more money. In point of fact, I am routinely mocked on HN for complaining about how my participation here has failed to garner me anything resembling a middle class income and told to STFU and go get a real job.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by aerovistae on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:09PM (#19892718)
Do keep in mind that probably hundreds or thousands of people have read your comment here without reacting; these few negative replies are an extreme minority of the total population your words have reached.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:19PM (#19892782)
Thank you for your concern. But I'm fine.

Choosing to engage with a specific comment is not necessarily evidence that I'm all up in arms about it. It is an unfortunate truism that there is generally more to say when people have a difference of opinion than when they see things the same way. It is unfortunate because it tends to promote an appearance of fightiness rather than conversation in online forums, even when the explicit goal is conversation, as it generally is for me personally.

I've participated here nearly ten years. Rest assured, I have some familiarity with how the forum operates.

(Between my old handle -- Mz -- and this one, I have more than 40k karma. If it were under one handle, I would be respectably high on the leader board.)

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by iforgotpassword on Sunday May 12, 2019 @05:25AM (#19890945)
I didn't particularly read this as blaming Microsoft, but rather big corps in general. I never worked for a company with more than a couple thousand employees, so I can't really relate to anything she wrote.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by chapium on Sunday May 12, 2019 @10:52AM (#19892237)
Agreed, it was partly coming of age and partly corporate culture. The issues with microsoft sicken me a bit, but its not much different than what I have seen elsewhere.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by cgh on Sunday May 12, 2019 @10:51AM (#19892225)
No offence, but if you’ve never worked in the particular cult-like pressure cooker that is Big Tech, then you can’t relate. The article was not about culture shock.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:14AM (#19892383)
I worked at a Fortune 200 company for a time. It wasn't big tech. It was a very famous insurance company. It also had a cult-like atmosphere and many people there felt it was the biggest thing that had ever happened to them.

I'm a former military wife. So I was involved in protecting national security while changing diapers and generally being viewed by the planet as a big fat nothing homemaker. "Loose lips sink ships."

So I viewed my corporate job as merely a day job of no special importance, thus I was not sucked into the cult-like atmosphere of the place. I imagine I would be equally resistant to the cult-like atmosphere at a tech company.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by simondedalus on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:29AM (#19892468)
Maybe your experience is “another interesting perspective worth writing about or considering” and not a refutation of the author’s experience and her conclusions about what it meant.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:43AM (#19892570)
My original comment wasn't intended as refutation of anything. It was intended to offer a broader perspective on her piece.

She waited 18 months to say publicly what she thought about it. She's still quite young and 18 months is not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things.

I'm 53. I had an affair in my twenties. I then read as much research as I could get my hands on.

Some common themes:

People frequently are unfaithful while physically separated from their spouse. It's a common feeling that it somehow doesn't count if you are far apart. In fact, some people use that stance as justification to have an ongoing long distance affair.

Affairs are common in stressful situations. When things are overwhelming, humans have a weird habit of reaching for a smidgen of distraction and comfort amid the chaos.

Although popular opinion is that affairs ruin relationships, cause and effect almost always runs the other direction: Affairs don't kill relationships. Instead, relationships in their death throes foster affairs.

I generally consider 18 months to not be a whole lot of time to gain perspective on international and cross cultural experiences. Cultures and nation's tend to be far older than the individuals in them and it can take quite a long time to digest the intersection where two such things meet in one person's life and, unfortunately, all too often grind on that specific individual.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by lioeters on Sunday May 12, 2019 @05:50PM (#19894793)
I for one appreciated your original comment - thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. It's a good point, that culture shock and dissonance, growing up and being humbled by the unreasonable chaos of the real world, are important aspects of what the author of the article lived through.

The phrase "cult-like atmosphere" of corporations is meaningful too. Having lived in different national/regional/organizational cultures, I'd agree that there's a significant correspondence between culture and cult.

Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by blantonl on Sunday May 12, 2019 @01:04PM (#19893052)
That sounds JUST like USAA...
[dead]
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by onesmallcoin on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:04PM (#19893767)
It's sad we make it a war zone
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:08PM (#19893783)
It's sadder still that attempts to promote the peace by commenting on best practices are typically received with open hostility.
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by onesmallcoin on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:34PM (#19893963)
I really hear you, it's hard because in my mind the solutuon would be something along the lines of going back in time a couple thousand years and starting then, it's a delicate thing to care about on both sides and it shouldn't be. We preach equality but the games don't stop- I don't really have the perfect answer here
Re:What I gained, lost and learned while working for Microsoft by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:38PM (#19894001)
I don't either. I decided to err in a particular direction here and take the hit for it. I routinely err on the side of respecting the male side of the equation in such matters. It's part of why I am accepted to some degree here.