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Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by ergothus on Thursday May 09, 2019 @04:22PM (#19872027)
> microtransactions in casual games are winning in the financial sense, despite the complaints of "hardcore" gamers.

I'm not a "hardcore" gamer - I'm incredibly casual. I hate microtransactions because the focus has switched to "addictive" play rather than "rewarding" play. Microtransactions are usually BAD for casuals - You might have 10 minutes to play but can only play for 5 mins without paying up. You might have one night a week to play, but it wants you to log in for a few minutes every couple of hours, etc.

BUT the lack of alternatives means that there will be plenty of money spent on them. So I think this is a matter of "microtransactions out-earn flat cost games despite likely player preferences", not "hardcore vs casual".

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by taurath on Thursday May 09, 2019 @04:45PM (#19872257)
Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive.

There's people who've put 10,000 hours into Diablo 2, for example, a game that is incredibly repetitive at the highest level - they play for the chance of that one great random drop.

Microtransaction games generally trade money or time, and then put barriers up on the time, or increase it vastly. The difference is when it feels like you're being asked for money it turns it exploitive, rather than being asked to spend 100 hours waiting for a yellow item to drop (that being more akin to "skill" and "investment").

Players want their reward fix. Microtransaction games are frequently like a watered-down drug. Just like social media, I don't think that just because people use them means they're a good thing - its junk food for the mind.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by ergothus on Thursday May 09, 2019 @04:57PM (#19872348)
> Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive

true, but addictive gameplay isn't necessarily rewarding. That's the critical difference I was trying to emphasize.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by taurath on Thursday May 09, 2019 @10:31PM (#19874566)
I think it is - you're being rewarded with "progress", even as the game gives you the concept.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by ergothus on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:04AM (#19875202)
That's "a reward". I'm talking about whether at the end of a gaming session you feel good and would like to play again (rewarding) or if you feel unfulfilled and want to play more try and get that fulfillment. Rewarding.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by derefr on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:00PM (#19872860)
> they play for the chance of that one great random drop

You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.)

In such cases, the only thing standing in my way of the goal is mindless—and totally automatable—repetition. I could write a bot to grind a Sword of Kings for me. Heck, I could download someone else's bot they already wrote. So what's the difference between downloading+running such a bot, and just editing the game in a save-game editor to give myself the sword? Same amount of effort. Same reward. Either way I'm not really "playing the game." But either way, I get to skip the part of the game that isn't fun, and get back to doing something that is fun.

The only place where I feel that this approach doesn't apply, is when the game isn't using HWRNG randomness, but rather deterministic seed-based randomness, like Minecraft or many modern roguelikes. If the resources I want are only available down on the 90th floor of the dungeon in this seed—and that's a deterministic fact-of-life of the seed—then that's just the scenario I signed up to play, and I'll accept it. But, of course, with such systems, I get to "choose my luck" by looking for a generous or mean seed someone else discovered during their own playthrough (or using a bot to scan for such seeds.)

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by rifung on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:32PM (#19873088)
> You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.)

I don't think I was nearly as smart as you but Maplestory was actually my first introduction to computing.

The game was really grindy and required you to just use your mana (I was a mage), and then sit to recover it, and then go back to killing stuff. It seems like they didn't do server side checks so I actually learned how to use a memory editor and just save the mana field which made it so that it didn't go down.

Of course, the problem with this is that it morally questionable since it gives you an unfair advantage and gets you banned.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by Scarblac on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:57AM (#19875948)
People _like_ doing something repetitively and getting random rewards. It triggers reward systems in the brain.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by derefr on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:14AM (#19877870)
I can understand that when it takes a few minutes at most before—if not the reward you’re looking for—at least some kind of reinforcement stimulus (e.g., with a slot machine, seeing two of the three wheels line up, making you feel like you “almost got it.”) That seems “fun”, if just due to a bug in human brain-hardware that you should probably not want-to-want.

But these games don’t work like this. When you’re trying to find a rare drop, there’s nothing giving you the feeling that you’re getting any “closer” to it. You just have to throw days of blind dice rolls for no reward at the game, before it’ll turn around and give you the reward once. Variable-schedule rewards shouldn’t actually work at that sparse a frequency. People who get easily addicted to things don’t usually find themselves grinding for rare drops.

The people who do do this kind of grinding are people with big reserves of determination. And I don’t really get what they get out of it.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by Scarblac on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:20AM (#19898076)
It builds up. Early in the game you get useful drops very quickly, and slowly slowly over time the frequency goes down until you grind for weeks just waiting for that single drop.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by wildleaf on Friday May 10, 2019 @11:47AM (#19878867)
One incentive is that you get other more common drops along the way which help beef up your arsenal and help you progress at faster and faster rates.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by ahartmetz on Thursday May 09, 2019 @04:57PM (#19872346)
Good observation about Diablo. Diablo 1 was the last Blizzard game whose art style I liked, but I stopped playing when I realized that I was clicking on enemies until they're dead. The actual core game mechanics are garbage.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by baud147258 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:24AM (#19877441)
I recently finished Titan Quest (with the latest expansion), a Diablo clone. And I found that most of the gameplay wasn't just clicking: it was choosing on which enemy to click (to prioritise the most dangerous enemy first for example), when and where to use my skills/scrolls/potions; then outside of combat, which equipment to use, which skills/stats to upgrade, which upgrade to apply on which piece of equipment. Another important part was also the art style/ambience of the levels, which was an important part of my enjoyment of the game.

On the other hand I spent little time grinding and have little desire to play the game a second time on harder difficulty.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by ahartmetz on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:35AM (#19878121)
That is exactly the same as Diablo and all true. The metagame is moderately interesting and the artwork / ambiance / style (in Diablo 1, for me) is nice.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by baud147258 on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:54PM (#19879671)
Yes, that's why I disagreed with the idea that Diablo = click on enemies until they're dead; it's a little more than that.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by dragonsngoblins on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:16AM (#19875252)
I enjoyed Diablo 2 a lot when I was younger but didn't care anywhere near as much for my experience with 3. I think the main issue is that with 2 I mostly played it in the same room as friends I was playing it with, and it was more something to do while we would hang out and talk to each other. I played with friends when I played 3 too, but it wasn't in person and I think that hurt it
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by wil421 on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:59PM (#19873311)
I was old enough to play the Diablos, Starcraft and Warcraft when they came out. When I was kid playing Diablo it don’t bother me. When Diablo III came out I played it as an adult and realize it was just clicking. I hated the game. Starcraft is still nice but I don’t play it.

Almost bought Diablo for my Switch this year and recalled how much of it is just clicking.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by baud147258 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:26AM (#19877456)
Or perhaps Diablo III wasn't a very good game?
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by klaidliadon on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:46AM (#19875902)
Would you apply the same reasoning to card games like Hearthstone or Magic Arena?
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by Scarblac on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:55AM (#19875943)
I was thinking about Hearthstone reading his comment, it's exactly like that -- huge time investment if you want to pay nothing or a little bit, less time investment if you pay.

That said, the amount you have to pay to get a large collection in Hearthstone is staggering, if you drop $80 every few months for the next expansion you still only have a few of the epic and legendary cards.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by taurath on Sunday May 12, 2019 @04:19AM (#19890795)
And those cards become useless in 9 months as they rotate out of standard. Have a great deck you find fun to play one month? Gauranteed it no longer works after another 2. It’s an incredibly efficient scheme to make you want to buy more packs, if you’ve decided you want to be good at the game.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by watwut on Thursday May 09, 2019 @04:58PM (#19872354)
I can talk only for myself, but flat cost games lost me years ago. They either were not making games I liked or did not marketed them where I could find them. Effectively, I was unable to find a game I would enjoy without paying too much for games I did not.

Free to play games with microtransactions I liked were easy to find and whenever I guessed wrong, attempt was for free.

So for all the crumbling, there are people like me who gained on that development.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by DanielleMolloy on Thursday May 09, 2019 @05:06PM (#19872421)
I could not name a single microtransactions game that offers a similarly deep or atmospheric or satisfying experience as, say, Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, Final Fantasy X or a round of multiplayer Mario Kart. Can you..?

Virtually all free to play and free online games I know are exploiting human psychological vulnerabilities in some way or another to keep you playing. Those games leave me completely unsatisfied.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by dragontamer on Thursday May 09, 2019 @05:44PM (#19872740)
> I could not name a single microtransactions game

Ms. Pacman, Arcade Tetris, Street Fighter II Turbo.

The "microtransactions" games of the 80s and 90s were the ORIGINAL video games, the arcade scene. I miss the atmosphere and the ability to physically meet friends, but ultimately, they were microtransaction games nonetheless.

I've sunk more time into honing my skills in Ms. Pacman than most modern RPGs. Multiplayer Competitive Tetris is probably my #2 game (through the game Puyo Puyo Tetris). Arcade-style 3-minute games are far easier to get into, AND easy to stop playing (!!). They are games that respect my time, yet provide a deep, and rewarding skill curve.

-----

TMNT Arcade, X-men arcade, Final Fight, Simpsons, Time Crisis, Missle Command, Millipede, etc. etc. There were a bunch of other arcade games that took up a lot of my time and are also excellent. I'll give Ms. Pacman the title for probably most influential arcade game though.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with the microtransactions model per se. There's a LOT of bad microtransaction games out there, but that's because they're skinner-boxes optimized for addictive gameplay.

The older arcade games were tests of skill, and more than just a skinner box / slot machine loot box crate. You're not spending money at the arcade for the chance of a rare card or rare drop. If someone made an arcade-game skinner box, it'd be quickly forgotten (Ms. Pacman arcades would have been sitting next to it, and no one would seriously play a skinner-box game if Ms. Pacman were so close).

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by derefr on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:08PM (#19872930)
> but ultimately, they were microtransaction games nonetheless.

I would argue that "casual game with microtransactions" is a particular design philosophy, and arcade games don't actually share this philosophy. Sure, both games have you constantly paying small amounts, but consider:

In an arcade game, if you get really good, one quarter can let you play for hours. Arcade games effectively charge bad players more for their time, with time-cost trending toward zero as skill increases. So there's effectively a finite amount of money any given player will ever have to spend on the game (unless they hit a skill ceiling, get stuck not making any progress, but continue to find the game fun nevertheless—which is rare); and skill at many types of games are "portable", such that money you spend learning one arcade game is money you don't then have to spend learning another similar game.

In a modern casual F2P game, skill at the game's mechanics is entirely orthogonal to the thing you're paying for. Sometimes this means that the thing you're paying for doesn't affect the mechanics, e.g. skins. But other times this means that both good and bad players can "pay to win", and that there's no point at which you're so good that it would no longer make sense to give the game money.

Imagine a competitive arcade game with a point-based leaderboard on its attract screen (e.g. most racing games, games like Donkey Kong or Pac-Man, etc.) But imagine that, instead of needing to pay to play and quarters equalling continues, instead, anyone can play for free, but quarters increase your score by 1000 points (with no indication that this was done.) Even the top players would need to take advantage of this to show up on the leaderboard, because if they didn't, they wouldn't rank, since all the other top players had.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by DanielleMolloy on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:02PM (#19872873)
All of these may have classics status but are actually very shallow experiences too. As you say they were rewarding skilled players and were not simply offering lottery tickets with dopamine-engineered random patterns to children, but they are still not comparable at all to the ones mentioned. Arcade games were also often notoriously hard and required a lot of invested money to reach the leaderboard. The fact that less dark and more social, but similar money making schemes existed in the 80s in the form of arcades doesn't make them better.

Of course these shallow experiences are reproduced on mobile nowadays. Match-3 games were a staple of all gaming generations and even reached some depth (Puzzle Quest) before they completely moved to mobile in the form of exploitative skinnerware.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by dragontamer on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:42AM (#19877577)
> Arcade games were also often notoriously hard and required a lot of invested money to reach the leaderboard.

I don't recall ever getting to the leaderboard on Ms. Pacman in my youth. I get it today, but that's mostly because kids these days suck at the game and the leaderboards are empty.

Case in point: the most OG game was probably Whack-a-mole, in existence in some form since the early 1900s. There's no leaderboard: you play the game because its fun. Sometimes there are prizes, but more often than not, its just an arcade booth sitting by itself with a few quarters and a hammer.

Arcade games of the 80s were similar: Ms. Pacman, Missile Command, etc. etc. were just short burst games to take up time while your parents shopped elsewhere in the mall.

By the 90s, arcade games began to have longer, more cohesive stories. You could theoretically get to the end of "Simpsons" or "TMNT", but more often than not... people put a quarter or two for the first level, died, and moved on with their life. Its there just for fun and pure enjoyment.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by watwut on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:35AM (#19875551)
You seem to assume that everyone shares your preference for "depth" and distaste for "shallow".

That is just not how it is and that is also my point.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by watwut on Thursday May 09, 2019 @05:08PM (#19872440)
Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks. Aaand it is not the kind of game I ever liked anyway (even if I had that time).

I understand that other people like it, but these games are not for me.

It is very similar with other games you mentioned. Not for me at all (maybe Mario kart would be exception for occasional play).

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by thirdsun on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:48AM (#19876857)
> Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks.

This argument comes up often, but I as soemone who also has limited time I can't understand it. Nobody forces you to finish huge games like The Witcher 3 in weeks, months or even years. It just means that the price of such a game buys you a lot and long-lasting entertainment (assuming you like the content). Just take your time, use the free evening that may come up every few weeks and enjoy the game much longer than most people.

Admittedly, 10 minute play sessions won't work in this case, but if you never have more time than that available, I'd say there are other things to consider, but it's not my place to judge.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by watwut on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:22PM (#19881872)
It is not fun in one evening per few weeks. You won't remember beginning by the time you proceed into like 10% of the game. I really doubt there is anyone who could enjoy the game like that. Three years later when you reached ending, you likely don't care about story anymore. Sounds like chore when played that way - something you do out of duty not out of enjoyment. Plus as I said, I would not liked that game even if I had time.

Second, it is time where you can't be interrupted, so you can't do it while kids don't sleep yet (or you basically expect partner to handle it for you). It is huge chunk of regular time when you also ignore partner and are not learning something for the job are not exercising etc. That is not available three times per week in two hours long minimum chunks.

There are more then one reason why this is not for me and hated mobile games with microtransactions are something I actually enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no reason to force myself into playing games that are just annoying to me.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by rifung on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:34PM (#19873116)
> I could not name a single microtransactions game that offers a similarly deep or atmospheric or satisfying experience as, say, Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, Final Fantasy X or a round of multiplayer Mario Kart. Can you..?

I'm not sure what you consider a "microtransaction game" but LoL and dota 2 are both completely free and have huge hardcore followings. I believe CS: GO is also free to play now.

They're significantly more involved than Mario Kart at the very least.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by DanielleMolloy on Thursday May 09, 2019 @07:41PM (#19873607)
LoL has the esports aspect and Riot is careful about pay-to-win therefore, and keeps it interesting for competitions. It is indeed probably one of the least exploitative companies in that field. Its competition aspect is extremely addictive and easy to fall for though, and may ultimately leave you unsatisfied from thousands of repetitive gaming hours if you don't become engaged in real life esports / hobbyist communities in parallel. Not sure whether it is engineered to hook players so much though (Fortnite probably is).

With "Mario Kart multiplayer" I mean the experience of 4-player couch multiplayer, not online multiplayer.

Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by baud147258 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:25AM (#19877448)
I'd say Warframe made a good attempt on the satisfying experience at least.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by crypticlizard on Thursday May 09, 2019 @05:13PM (#19872486)
shattered pixel dungeon is one such example imo.
Re:U.S. adults are spending big on video games, playing most... by DanielleMolloy on Thursday May 09, 2019 @05:40PM (#19872703)
But Shattered Pixel Dungeons has no microtransactions, it is a roguelike. Btw, this genre makes use of the same psychological vulnerabilities to random rewards, they just use them to make a real (admittedly often well-designed) game and not for exploiting my bank account.