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Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by stevehiehn on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:20PM (#19845573)
Makes you wonder if the endgame is to eventually just gut windows completely and have a Microsoft GUI running on Linux.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by andrewstuart on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:15PM (#19845812)
You've misunderstood what this is. It is a full kernel for the Linux subsystem, which provides the ability to run Linux code in Windows. As I understand it, the existing solution maps Linux kernel calls to the Windows kernel. I can imagine it would be much easier to just provide a true Linux kernel rather than try to support a brittle mapping layer.

They are not putting in a Linux kernel for Windows. Huge difference.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by stevehiehn on Monday May 06, 2019 @11:31PM (#19846250)
I have a decent understanding of what this is. I don't think WSL was added because they thought it would be cool to have two OS's. The bigger picture is every day windows becomes less relevant. Microsoft is now a powerful cloud company. I'm not sure even they even care about windows clients beyond legacy contracts. I think before thier users have no choice but to leave they want to say hey look, you are already using Linux, no need to go anywhere.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by newnewpdro on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:16AM (#19846517)
I'm pretty confident in saying Microsoft has zero intention of running Linux directly on the bare-metal serving as the driver layer for Windows.

This is nothing more than a way for Microsoft to provide a *NIX userspace competitive with Apple, you know, so developers actually consider using their products instead of Apple's.

Edit:

We're actually in the midst of quite the opposite happening with the Linux kernel. After Android pivots to Fuchsia/Zircon, it'll only be a matter of time before Linux running on the bare-metal outside of datacenters will be exclusively the niche domain of Raspberry Pi style tinkerer devices and the tiny population of Linux enthusiasts running them on increasingly poorly supported PCs.

PC owners will be increasingly less compelled to bother even trying a Linux installation when their OEM Windows install already contains it as a compatibility shim.

This all translates into Linux's native support for modern desktops and laptops deteriorating for lack of users, I fear it's not going to be a growing market.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by squiggleblaz on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:57AM (#19846718)
Your edit isn't fair. I mean, if you ignore Android (where you hardly get to interact with Linux - even from a copyright perspective, Android Linuxes have rarely been Linux, since too many companies don't release the source of their binary blobs), then Linux on the desktop has always been relatively niche.

I am surprised that you could seriously suggest that the market for Linux on the desktops and laptops was even commercially viable (you say "I feal it's not growing to be a growing market"). When I started using Linux, it was basically people writing stuff for themself and releasing it to everyone. That actually seems like a fundamentally good goal. So what else could you want?

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by vthriller on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:01AM (#19847948)
> PC owners will be increasingly less compelled to bother even trying a Linux installation when their OEM Windows install already contains it as a compatibility shim.

There is still a plenty of reasons to avoid Windows, from privacy concerns (telemetry anyone?) to cost (sure, OEM is cheap but there are laptops that can be purchased OS-free for less. Also, there's virtually no such thing as OEM Windows in custom PC builds).

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by jchw on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:17AM (#19846809)
Wow, I can’t think of a future I’d like less. Thankfully this is nonsense ;)

It is true that desktop Linux users are a niche case. Hell, I would not be surprised if that niche got smaller, even; but I have some pretty intense doubts that it’s dying or even going in that direction. In fact I would argue that the desktop platform as a whole has been on a decline, whereas desktop Linux has merely stagnated. The average user who is either gaming or just Facebooking on Windows PCs are finding increasingly less use out of their desktops. The gaming market on PC is healthy, but it’s cracking: the fragmentation of PC game stores and the increasing power and versatility of game consoles probably poses a threat in the long term. For all other use cases, mobile operating systems like iOS and Android are rapidly becoming not only usable, but preferable. Banking on my iPhone feels like the future, compared to the shoddy web UIs full of age old cruft.

So Microsoft has made wonderful strides for developers using Windows. No sarcasm here; I’ve been developing software on Windows since Visual C++6 and it’s been nothing but improvements. But I develop software for servers and browsers. The Microsoft ecosystem does not appeal to me. .NET Core is great but there’s still a lot of work to go and it’s reaching maturity in a world where we have amazing languages like Go and Rust. I have still dabbled a bit in .NET Core and I’m impressed, but they would’ve probably had more success if it had kicked off years earlier than it did.

So what’s going on with Linux? Frankly, quite a lot!

- Wayland is finally reaching maturity, slowly. For now, this is causing loads of problems, but as those issues clear up it’s looking like this might finally work out!

- Valve continues to improve Steam, with integrated Windows emulation. It’ll never be a substitute for real ports, but it’s still cool.

- The reproducibility and immutability bug has bit a few hands. New, advanced distributions like GuixSD and NixOS offer a pretty unique, extremely predictable experience (even if that predictable experience is not exactly compatible with the full range of existing software.) Fedora has rolled out OStree-based system upgrades too, which is awesome. This is one of those things where desktop Linux was really awful that is becoming a strength.

- There is apparently genuine demand for OEM Linux. We see not one, but two vendors that appear to be thriving: Purism, and System76. I want one of those darn Helios boxes just to look nice in the living room (and yes, I run Linux in the living room, and it’s been way less horrible than I would’ve imagined.)

(There’s more; like btrfs and other innovations that benefit desktop AND server use cases)

There’s more. And it goes without saying that there have also been negatives. Like graphics drivers from our green logoed friends. But by and large, I’ve had a great past decade with Linux. Aside from a small audio issue, my desktops have been free of any hardware compatibility issues throughout upgrades. Intel offers GPU passthrough that you can use in your KVM boxes for better virtualization. AMD IOMMU is reliable for nearly any Ryzen setup (got a GPU passthrough setup going great over here, and it didn’t even take a whole weekend to set up.)

Is Linux dying? Hell no. Is it the year of the Linux desktop? Also no. These claims both come up constantly and neither ever materialize. Desktop Linux has its niche and it probably will for the foreseeable future. Don’t extrapolate the ebb and flow too far.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by collyw on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @08:40AM (#19848819)
Really? Maybe its because I work with biologists, but I have seen more and more non-techies with Linux desktops in recent years.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by pjmlp on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:05AM (#19846756)
Had Microsoft improved their POSIX support on NT, instead of having it as nuisance to win contracts, and GNU/Linux would had never taken off.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:04AM (#19846450)
WSL came originally from their plan to make Android apps trivially portable to Windows Phone.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by toflon on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @04:47AM (#19847598)
Worth noting that Project Astoria was shelved before release, and WSL came out after Windows Phones final release.

So technically WSL was not intended to be used for porting android apps.

But they did use Project Astoria as at starting ground to create WSL.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by max76 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:33AM (#19847098)
> I'm not sure even they even care about windows clients beyond legacy contracts

Why wouldn't they? Windows does billions of dollars of sales a year.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by stevehiehn on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:50AM (#19847159)
Ya, for sure they care. I guess I'm just making the point that cloud and productivity tools is now the money maker & not just windows. According to this breakdown Personal computing is around 38% of Microsofts revenue (which is alot) https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/19/heres-how-microsof...
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by marktolson on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:39AM (#19847124)
Windows has already lost out on the server game. Less desktop apps are being written each year with the move to mobile/web based apps. The desktop OS is largely becoming irrelevant.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by networkimprov on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @05:05AM (#19847678)
We've been hearing that for 20 years; previously it was Web apps that would render the PC (aka desktop) irrelevant.

There is a huge and profitable class of applications that require the features of a PC. The Internet and wireless LAN/WAN and ARM architecture haven't changed that.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by sridca on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:17AM (#19849583)
I feel quite positive that the web will be de facto platform (more than desktop or mobile) for writing apps. Things like WebGL, FRP, ChromeOS will only make that all more pleasant to write and use apps causing a (already happening) gradual shift in platform.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by Tsubasachan on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:28AM (#19848072)
Enterprise uses Windows. Period.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by kwhitefoot on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @07:33AM (#19848448)
Enterprise mostly uses Windows applications. The end users don't care about the OS only the shell and the applications.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by squarefoot on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @04:09AM (#19847446)
This is functionally speaking exactly what WINE has been for Linux, although WINE differs and was a lot harder to develop because for obvious reasons it cannot contain a Windows kernel. My only concern is one day people (Microsoft?) will start writing "Linux" software which would "perform better" on WSL rather than on regular Linux, then driving away part of the userbase from the real thing.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by razakel on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:58AM (#19849342)
>My only concern is one day people (Microsoft?) will start writing "Linux" software which would "perform better" on WSL rather than on regular Linux, then driving away part of the userbase from the real thing.

I suspect their lawyers would gently remind them that the Department of Justice and the European Commission were not best pleased when they pulled that crap in the past.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by monochromatic on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:25PM (#19845873)
>endgame

He’s not saying it’s happening right now.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by davidkuhta on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:57PM (#19846040)
It could be in one of the other 14,000,604 outcomes.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by walrus01 on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:38PM (#19845660)
I don't think anyone cares anymore - microsoft's future revenue is subscription based/monthly recurring services like office365, azure VMs, etc. Whether people access those from a desktop, laptop or android, ios device running windows 10 or a linux kernel or ios kernel or macos is moot.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by codedokode on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:24AM (#19846848)
I think they only want to be able to run Node, Python or Docker on Windows natively so that developers don't have motivation to switch to Linux.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by tracker1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:29AM (#19849704)
Node and Python already run on windows natively... Docker for Windows is, meh, but it works. Still switching from a hackintosh at home to Linux... wish I could switch at work.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by naikrovek on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:23PM (#19845588)
It does not make anyone wonder that. No one who knows Windows, anyway.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by mixmastamyk on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:30AM (#19846599)
No one would have guessed a few years back that Apple would be running on risc chips, then Unix, then x86, then... Or Amazon becoming the leading internet infrastructure provider. Or MS dumping their browser for Chrome, or ten other very surprising things they’ve done lately.

Don’t underestimate what new leadership who have no nostalgia towards Windows, but want to save money to pay themselves bonuses might do.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by NikkiA on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:46PM (#19851154)
> No one would have guessed a few years back that Apple would be running on risc chips

Just how far back are you talking? Because around 1988 most people were suspecting that apple would migrate to the 88000 at some point in the near future. And by the time it was obvious to apple users and (3rd party) developers that the 88000 was going nowhere fast, AIM had happened.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by mixmastamyk on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @07:29PM (#19854428)
When I started out in the 90s there were cisc wintel PCs, cisc macs, and risc/unix workstations like Sun. The idea that Apple would be selling a risc/unix workstation would been laughed at. And of course that didn't last long, they blew everyones minds again by switching to Intel a few years later.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by orodley on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:48AM (#19846942)
The fact that surprising things have happened in the past isn't evidence for a particular surprising thing happening in the future.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by mixmastamyk on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:16AM (#19847027)
Who’s looking for evidence? It’s a call to open your mind.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by ulkesh on Monday May 06, 2019 @11:07PM (#19846112)
Interestingly, I have it on good authority from someone who works at MS that they are experimenting exactly with that: Windows as a desktop environment running on top of Linux.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by acct1771 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:41AM (#19846651)
This is a bold claim - is your friend sure they're not "just" sharing some system calls, but still running both kernels?
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by ulkesh on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:31AM (#19846875)
I said they’re experimenting with Windows simply being a desktop environment on top of Linux. Only the Linux kernel would be involved. NTOSKRNL wouldn’t be present. I suspect if they’re trying to get native Windows apps to run, some call translation layer would have to exist (similar to what WINE provides).

Perhaps it is a bold claim, I haven’t seen it first hand. And it certainly has me hoping it goes much further than experimentation. I’d love to have a Windows environment on top of ext4 or zfs and the Linux kernel.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by Daprofessor on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:30AM (#19848091)
It would be an interesting proposition - yet the burden of legacy code is too much. Essentially we are talking about a WINE-ey situation here, where your true honest humble int WINAPI WinMain program's messages have to be translated to Linux kernal calls and vice versa. It would be a huge hassle for everyone involved plus the corporate crowd would absolutely detest it (unless every corporate bell and whistle was there and I very much doubt it).
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by tracker1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:31AM (#19849730)
Considering MS has the actual source to the Win API, they could very well complete what WINE does on a linux kernel.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by fxfan on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:33PM (#19845629)
Reminds me of the time there was a comment wondering what the OS on Microsoft watch was- someone responded with a speculation - an erlang vm with js for gui
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by fetbaffe on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @05:41AM (#19847870)
Why? With the NT now you can run Windows binaries AND Linux binaries. With the Linux kernel you can only run Linux binaries (no WINE does not count). How is that an improvement?
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by tracker1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:27AM (#19849688)
WINE is to Linux as WSL is to Windows... they're the same thing.

In any case, the WSL experience on windows is still pretty sub-par. Until you can at least support the functionality offered by PodMan directly, including SystemD etc, it's not there yet. Even then, it's been kind of nasty to work with in general the handful of times I've tried.

Currently using Docker for Windows, and the msys bash that comes with Git, which though annoying for some things is still better experience wise than WSL is. Next desktop (Zen 2) will be on Linux.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by fetbaffe on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:40AM (#19849852)
WSL1 yes, but not WSL2, this is the what this article is about.

Constantly people are bringing up that MS should switch to the Linux kernel. It makes zero sense.

You lose the ABI to run all the old Windows binaries out there when you can keep that AND run Linux binaries.

Also people seem to forget that the NT kernel runs on multiple platforms, on my XBox One with x86-64 CPU I can run old XBox 360 RISC CPU games. Windows 10 can run x86 binaries on ARM CPU:s. How is switching to a Linux kernel ever going to help with that?

Consequence of that argument is that Microsoft needs to support TWO flavors of Windows, one with the NT kernel & one with the Linux kernel. On top of that you get all the editions as a multiplier.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by tracker1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:47AM (#19849942)
Oh, I don't think Windows UI on Linux will become a commercial product... though I wouldn't mind a more windows-friendly shell with a much more complete WINE on linux. I actually like the tool/taskbar for windows 10 (sans cortana), still prefer the win7 start menu itself.

I did also like the Ubuntu UX a lot as well, not as much as Windows. Mac's is really usable but the MacOS-like shells are not quite there for the most part, at least from those I've tried.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by __HYde on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:09AM (#19849463)
NT can not run Linux binaries. That is why Microsoft are now shipping a full Linux kernel for WSL 2. WSL 1 translated Linux syscalls to NT in the same way that WINE does in the reverse.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by irth on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:50PM (#19851180)
To be honest, WSL translated Linux syscall to NT the same way that it translates Win32 calls to NT. NT has its own API and has a thing called "personalities" which they used to implement both OS/2 and Win32 binaries support, and recently Linux. So where WINE is an additional layer on top of Linux syscalls, WSL1 is on the same "level" as Win32.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by fetbaffe on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:22AM (#19849626)
Linux kernel runs on a VM above the NT kernel.

Edit: NT kernel & hypervisor.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by robmiller on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:07PM (#19845778)
Windows Is an Emulator

...doesn't quite have the same ring.

Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by jjdredd on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:41PM (#19852213)
I mean it's all ring0
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by anticensor on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @05:39AM (#19847849)
Emulator Not Inside Windows
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by woliveirajr on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:46PM (#19845699)
Once upon a time I would run windows over a Linux served VM. It was fast, stable and happy, not having to deal with that much hardware.
Re:Microsoft is going to ship a full Linux kernel in Windows 10 by mmcnl on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:45PM (#19851699)
I would be very interested in a Linux distro by Microsoft. Could be very compelling.