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Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by ocdtrekkie on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:54PM (#19842564)
One of the things I particularly recall reading is FastMail devs explaining that the standardization process led to changes and improvements. (Even their about page says that "JMAP was built by the community, and continues to improve via the IETF standardization process.")

Really thrilled the FastMail team is working on this, and doing it in the way that changes to mail should be handled: Going through proper Internet standards bodies. It's in stark contrast to AMP4Email, which is being implemented by Google wholly without respect to Internet standards.

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by tialaramex on Monday May 06, 2019 @03:34PM (#19842936)
The IETF's standardisation process almost can't help but improve whatever it is you're trying to standardize. Not only are you being shepherded by peers with expertise in whatever corner of networking you're excited about (the Area Directors for whichever Area your Working Group was assigned to) but you're obliged to put up with anyone who cares to offer an opinion mailing it in. Looking for consensus isn't a good way to run a restaurant kitchen, but it may be the best possible way to agree network standards. Even when contributors say something you believe to be completely stupid figuring out how to put into words exactly why they're wrong is likely to be instructive, and as often as not they're not /quite/ as wrong as you first thought.

For example the TLS Working Group is polishing up a document telling people to cut it out with the TLS 1.0 after all these years and get to something at least vaguely modern like ten year old TLS 1.2 instead, (once upon a time named the diediedie draft, these days it has a more respectable name). Martin Rex offered the opinion that TLS 1.2 is _worse_ than TLS 1.0 and 1.1 because it doesn't smash SHA1 and MD5 together to produce a single hash. He reasons that if, somehow, SHA1 is broken enough to allow a preimage attack, TLS 1.0 is fine, whereas TLS 1.2 with SHA1 is now broken.

Of course people said Martin is barking up the wrong tree. But much more importantly they took another look at their document, it didn't actually _say_ you should implement SHA-256 when you upgrade to TLS 1.2, but they all agreed you should do that, so probably the document wants to spell that out...

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by viraptor on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:32PM (#19845907)
> IETF's standardisation process almost can't help but improve whatever it is you're trying to standardize

I've read the SIP RFCs. That's not a hard rule unfortunately. (Unless it really was worse before, but I can't imagine that...)

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by tialaramex on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:44AM (#19858718)
No need to imagine, the IETF process results in a series of drafts for relatively modern things like SIP, so you can go back and look e.g.

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?difftype=--hwdiff&url2=rfc326...

... is the changes from their last draft to the published RFC

Admittedly only very recent work with git-minded people in the WG has a full git history of revisions, earlier work like SIP just has the numbered drafts representing a few months work typically from one draft to the next, but you can go back and see this work and also the mailing lists that drove the changes.

I'm not a SIP expert, but looks to me like the brief extracts I read are improvements. For example that last draft requires people who want to add a new SIP method (like INVITE or CANCEL) to send IANA a copy of the RFC describing their method. Why? What possible purpose could there be when RFCs are public documents? Are they expected to... print it out and mail it? So, the final standard text just says to provide the RFC number.

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by wmf on Monday May 06, 2019 @04:03PM (#19843209)
JMAP is still young; just wait until a plethora of non-interoperable optional extensions get added.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by btown on Monday May 06, 2019 @05:06PM (#19843875)
However bad this is, it's better than a plethora of non-interoperable optional IMAP extensions!

https://developers.google.com/gmail/imap/imap-extensions

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by tracker1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:09AM (#19848988)
Sigh... this is why implementing IMAP is a beast... Also doesn't cover what Exchange/Office 365 adds to the mix.

I'm happy to see a newer standard that is at least simpler to understand and implement.

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by atesti on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @04:11PM (#19853008)
Unfortunately Exchange adds almost nothing to the mix, they support only a bare minimum of imap extensions (only literal+ if i remember correctly) and much stuff is not supported
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by Aeolun on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:28PM (#19845310)
Yeah, at least all the current extensions of IMAP will be covered.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by contingencies on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:57PM (#19844781)
Really thrilled the FastMail team is working on this

Sorry to be 'that guy'. I like Fastmail but maybe they could fix some of the irritating bugs we keep asking for resolutions on before embarking on fun protocol invention missions. Two killers:

(1) When forwarding an email there is no link between the forwarded email and the original thread (TOTAL TIME WASTER), when reported they "don't consider it a bug [because of SMTP ID handling in existing daemons]". Missing the point here so hard guys!

(2) When creating a new filter it doesn't have a checkbox to include matching emails. This means you have to manually go replicate the search again, for consistency, to get things where they should be.

Frustrated at lack of response from reporting these as a commercial user. Inventing new protocols should not be higher priority than fundamental annoyances that are wasting customer time NOW.

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by Aeolun on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:30PM (#19845319)
Did you consider that they might only be wasting your time? I haven’t ever felt any frustration at any of the things you named.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by contingencies on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:38PM (#19845661)
Both are standard features on GMail, which beats your sample size of 1.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by kljdsjiodjaof on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:01AM (#19846434)
And I didn't care about them there either.

But you know, you could send them the feature requests - they actually implemented something I asked for on mobile, so at least one team is listening.

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by Aeolun on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @01:08AM (#19856025)
I’m not sure how sample size one beats sample size one.

Did you interview all gmail users to ask them if they would miss those features if they weren’t there?

Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by addicted on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:35PM (#19845641)
I would be very surprised if the people working on creating and implementing the new protocol have anything to do with the team that would fix the bugs you mention.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by contingencies on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:39PM (#19845666)
If they don't personally, then as a matter of fact they manage them.
Re:JMAP: A modern, open email protocol by azdle on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:35PM (#19845351)
Re #2, if you move things first the filter will be prefilled with how you just searched. This works for me, but probably only works for simple things.