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Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by wool_gather on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:42PM (#19827547)
This is not entirely accurate. Nothing was done remotely to disable the add-ons. It happened locally. A certificate that's on your machine as part of the Firefox install expired. When that happened, add-ons that were signed via a cert chain that included the expired one started appearing to be invalidly signed. And that's why it requires an update to completely fix. That part is remote, because they need to push a new valid certificate to you to replace the old one.

I do think that the UX should ideally be a bit more graceful; one of my add-ons is Multi-account Containers and its being disabled suddenly caused the window I was actively browsing in to just close, among other side effects.

But that kind of UX polish for what should be an exceptional case is obviously not going to be super-high priority, unfortunately.

[dead]
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:18PM (#19827799)
> And to the downvoters: doesn't this entire fiasco ENTIRELY PROVE MY POINT?

No.

All it proves is that certificates expire (which is a Good Thing (tm)). If you depend on online certificates to verify content, something like this can theoretically happen.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:36PM (#19827911)
So you think Mozilla is enjoying this right now? And that this is going to help the perception and market share of Firefox?

Hypothetically, lets say they took the opposite approach, and only checked the certificate date on installation. What would have happened? There would have been a brief period of time where people couldn't install extensions, it would have been fixed in a few hours, and this story would probably have like 20 upvotes and fallen off the front page in like 10 minutes, if it ever got there in the first place.

Now let's briefly look at what's actually taking place: a bunch of people's browsers broke. It broke in scary ways for some people that were using extensions for privacy; IE, their security might have been compromised by this decision by Mozilla. Mozilla is probably going to lose users over this. Their reputation is damaged. Not only that, but now people are evaluating other decisions that Mozilla has made separately from this in an unfavorable light (Studies and Normandy, specifically). The computing industry loses out on this too: we're all better off for chrome having a viable open source competitor. We should want Mozilla to do well, whether you use their browser or not.

Which outcome do you think Mozilla engineers would be preferring today?

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by owl57 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:14PM (#19828172)
Not only that, but now people are evaluating other decisions that Mozilla has made separately from this in an unfavorable light (Studies and Normandy, specifically).

Sounds like a good thing. Probably sounds like a good thing to some of the engineers at Mozilla.

The computing industry loses out on this too: we're all better off for chrome having a viable open source competitor.

I want a free competitor, not an open source one. And this is the most prominent example of that somewhat subtle distinction: Firefox is open source, but with all these backdoors it's no longer free, neither in spirit nor in practice.

P.S. On the other hand, it's probably indeed better to have at least two serious competing browsers, even if they are both non-free.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:08PM (#19828538)
I do agree; although, it would have been nice for this discussion to come up without things breaking like this.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:44PM (#19827962)
You are putting words in my mouth, please stop that.

Instead of disabling this historically working feature which normally works great against hostile attacks such as MITM and malware this problem would've been avoided by a simple cron script which runs daily, and checks for expired certificates used within the infrastructure (both interaly used and externally used).

The main competitor you mention, Google Chrome, is a terrible privacy hazard. This situation does not change that.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:59PM (#19828061)
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you literally said this is a "Good Thing (tm)", because of hypothetical security reasons. Whereas I'm literally saying that this actually broke real privacy extensions, broke peoples software, and badly damaged their reputation.

As to your argument about security: doing the check on install instead of all the time, as I suggest is preferable, still protects against MITM and malware. The only argument for expiring software based on a calendar is that it might be a security risk if it's out of date. But first off, that is highly dependent on what the extension actually does. Also clearly we can see it's also a security risk to turn off privacy extensions without warning based on an arbitrary signing certificate.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:08PM (#19828133)
Things might change after install. Its a Good Thing (tm) to periodically recheck, or check revocations.

> > I'm not putting words in your mouth [..]

Yes, you did:

> "So you think [..]"

[dead]
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:37PM (#19828746)
What about the first part I wrote? Do you find CRL a useful feature in CAs/WoTs?
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by beezle on Saturday May 04, 2019 @07:39PM (#19830108)
Just because a cert expires is not a valid reason to disable functionality with no override available to the user. You may already know, you can override when visiting a website with an expired cert (once or forever). Yet nobody at Moz seemed to think it a good idea to allow it for extensions. Great.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:53AM (#19831838)
Fair point, hopefully they'll learn from this mistake and ensure the user can easier adapt. I expect them to, since I have Mozilla high in regard.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rebolek on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:02PM (#19827699)
You obviously never used Windows, so you’ve never encountered them restarting just because of an update.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:05PM (#19827720)
I have and it still infuriates me :-)

I also did a bunch of sketchy registry hacks to fix that. (I keep up to date, but I don't need microsoft restarting my system at random hours)

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by wool_gather on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:54PM (#19827633)
No, I totally agree with that (I just edited to expand on this point). It was a bad user experience.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:04PM (#19827717)
Well, I disagree that it's a UX issue. The problem is they shouldn't be expiring local software at all. If it was trustworthy at the time of install, why should the calendar date matter?

If users don't want to stay up to date, that may be unwise, but that's there call.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rincebrain on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:08PM (#19827742)
Because if the cert is (for example) actively revoked, that probably means you should stop trusting things signed by it in the past.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by nitrogen on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:22PM (#19827824)
But revocation is different from expiration.

If you're worried about a cert being compromised long after expiration and used to back-date a signature, you can show a warning, add a second signature with a local key at time of installation, use a blockchain to prove age, have a timestamping service generate its own signature at time of generation, etc.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rincebrain on Sunday May 05, 2019 @12:36PM (#19833592)
Sure, my point was mostly that there are reasonable cases in which one might want to evaluate the signing of an addon after the fact.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by the8472 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:22PM (#19827825)
That might make sense for TLS certificates where the server can change their content on a whim. A signed and installed addon has been trusted possibly for years, the need for sudden revocation is not dire enough compare to the price you have to pay for that (this failure, always-online requirement)
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:20PM (#19827812)
Revocation should handled differently than expiration. Two entirely separate things.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rauhl on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:46PM (#19827576)
Clearly, downstream distributors need to create a patch which causes their distributes Firefox builds to only check certificates on add-on installation (and to check revocations too, sure): it should never be possible for a browser to fail into an unsafe configuration.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Xylakant on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:42PM (#19828364)
Cert expiration is the only safe revocation. You cannot rely on revocation lists in many settings. Access to them might be maliciously blocked or, if locally kept, tampered with. The list could for example be replaced with an older one, which would circumvent signing the list unless the signature contains an expiration date and then you’re back to “oh, list expired, how do we fail?”

You cannot rely on check at extension install. That would assume that all malicious extensions are installed via FF proper. Oracles crapware bundling in the Java installer taught us that’s now how things go. You cannot remember the trust flag when an extension is installed via FF as a crapware installer could just set the trust flag, too. After all, that storage would be accessible, too. You cannot sign or encrypt that trust storage as the key material would have to be kept locally and would be accessible to the crapware installer.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rauhl on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:47PM (#19905670)
Well, frankly, I don’t really want a revocation list, and I don’t really want signed extensions in the first place. It’s my browser, and it’s not Mozilla’s business to decide what I install on my browser.

And I most definitely don’t want my browser to fail into an unsafe configuration.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by wool_gather on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:50PM (#19827610)
What's the difference to the user between "to check revocations too, sure" and what happened?
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by diplocorp on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:44PM (#19827959)
revocation != expiry
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by the8472 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:34PM (#19827900)
checking revocations lists != certificate expiry
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by dwaite on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:51PM (#19828010)
Revocation lists are often tied to certificate expiry, purging entries that are no longer valid due to expiry.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by the8472 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:02PM (#19828082)
No, revocation lists are orthogonal, often used to invalidate a certificate before it expires.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by wool_gather on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:47PM (#19827985)
At a the technical level of cert handling, yes. To the user? Not so sure.