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Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by EZ-E on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:37PM (#19821549)
Housing affordability & transportation costs relationship is the cornerstone that triggered the yellow jacket movement in France. Take most vulnerable families that live away from employment centers (cities) because they can't afford a house there, you have dependability to driving cars (no public transport). The government steps in and tries to tax fuel more for ecology - which pleases richer urban voters but squeezes people who bought a house 20 years ago back when fuel, insurance, parking wasn't as expensive. Their house are the only one that - by the way - are the only ones that didn't gain value.

The ever increasing "metropolisation" as we call it, is scary. More and more, you better be able to afford living in a big city or suffer the negative consequences

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by albertgoeswoof on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:22PM (#19821914)
> squeezes people who bought a house 20 years ago back when fuel, insurance, parking wasn't as expensive. Their house are the only one that - by the way - are the only ones that didn't gain value.

Are those the same people that tell me to move out of the city into a bigger place and commute in? They seem pretty smug about their choice, “you paid how much for your tiny little house? You could buy a mansion for that here”

Well this is why those people are wrong.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by thatfrenchguy on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:16PM (#19822758)
It's more complicated than that. In the Paris region, a lot of middle-class families that wanted apartments in the first ring in the 80s/90s often couldn't afford them (my parents tried to buy a 3bd 70m^2 and settled on a 4bd house double the size during that time), and houses in the second ring were really cheap in comparaison. That, plus the fact that trains to Paris weren't that bad/getting better led to a lot of people moving to the car suburbs.

As the parent comment mentioned, they're also the ones that didn't appreciate in the 2010s (after crazy appreciation in the 90s/00s): https://www.meilleursagents.com/prix-immobilier/ile-de-franc...

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by EZ-E on Friday May 03, 2019 @05:41PM (#19822541)
Some people do not realize they could get bit pretty hard by buying a house far away, that is indeed cheap and larger - but what happens when fuel gets even more expensive and governments issue many taxes and restrictions to discourage car usage ? (without offering realistic public transport options). Not to mention the usually poorer infrastructure/hospitals/schools

Note that it depends on the locality though, some places manage to find the sweet spot - not too far and still not that expensive. In some cities this doesn't exist.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by anovikov on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:54AM (#19824543)
Is the fuel really a concern there? I mean, fuel is such a tiny small part of the expenses overall in Europe. Almost invisibly small. France consumes 162K barrels of gasoline a day, or 9.4 billion liters at average price of 1.57 EUR. That's 1.2% of the value of household consumption, and by far not all of it is gasoline consumption by consumers. So we are speaking of <1% of household expenses. How is this squeeze?
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by benj111 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:33AM (#19825017)
This is what I'm trying to work out.

Here in the UK the AA come out every time theres a budget, asking for lower fuel duty for "hard pressed motorists".

The reality is fuel isn't that expensive, as evidenced by the fact that large 4x4s are getting increasingly popular, and people are happy to drive the half mile to the local shop to buy a pint of milk.

Edit: Plus EVs are a thing now, if fuel prices really were that bad.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by MRD85 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @04:01AM (#19825093)
According to this link[1], you are off by a factor of 10. It lists France at 1692K barrels per day. I wanted to double check the figures because I know how much it costs to operate a car and it's not 1.2% of household.

[1] - https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/France/oil_consumption/

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by cardiffspaceman on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:46PM (#19822929)
I observed two occasions where house prices in outlying areas of Southern California declined more than any decline at the same time in close-in houses. The first time was the early Nineties. These outlying areas also didn't have decent transportation into the urban areas, especially the first time around. I think Metrolink has expanded in the areas I am commenting on, "Inland Empire" areas like Victorville and Temecula.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by Nursie on Saturday May 04, 2019 @04:03AM (#19825101)
That depends on the transport costs.

In the UK you get into the centre of London from many places outside, on public transport, faster than you can cross London. And buy the much bigger property.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by IloveHN84 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:29AM (#19825000)
People living outside cities bought houses also for tiny prices.

Can't be possible to keep everything always cheap unfortunately, while living in the city is more expensive

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by gingabriska on Saturday May 04, 2019 @05:59AM (#19825493)
Living in a big city has more advantages.

Look at AQI of New York, compare it with Cardiff.

Not only people living in small cities are missing opportunities but also quality air, water and other inputs.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by toper-centage on Saturday May 04, 2019 @06:54AM (#19825680)
> quality air

What do you even mean??

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by gingabriska on Saturday May 04, 2019 @08:25AM (#19826000)
Air Quality Index. Small cities have more pollution due to lower density which makes public transport unfeasible or inefficient.
[dead]
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by stouset on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:48PM (#19822133)
They do, but they care about putting food on the table more. Can you blame them?
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by yeahitslikethat on Friday May 03, 2019 @05:38PM (#19822525)
No. They care about consuming more resources from an overtaxed planet. Hvac, materials, fuel.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by thatfrenchguy on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:12PM (#19822734)
There is no hvac in France in people's houses. According to this website, http://www.climatisations.net/marche.html, 5% of houses and 25% of businesses have hvac.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by leguminous on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:24PM (#19824224)
Just to clarify, because I assume there is a misunderstanding here: HVAC stands for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. I assume pretty much everyone in Paris has heat, since it gets below 5C in the winter.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by sfsfsf6666 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:20AM (#19824620)
France is at the latitude of Wyoming. And it has ocean on two sides. And plenty of people in Wyoming don't have air conditioning. My mother lives in Wyoming, and has no AC in her brand new condo.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by CPLX on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:54AM (#19824890)
Altitude trumps latitude.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:19PM (#19823128)
Wait what? Weren’t you trying to tell me the other day that the French aren’t poor?
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by thatfrenchguy on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:32PM (#19823704)
Houses in France are typically much better insulated than houses in the US.

Houses also have thick shutters, which once closed (which you usually do during the day) tend to retain cold better than without.

People in France also tend to take 3-4 weeks off in July / August as well (and business tend to be slower during those months as well), and tend to have wardrobes which are better suited to the season they’re in as well.

The climate is also slightly nicer as well, it gets less hot than in say Arizona :-).

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:37PM (#19823723)
All of that sounds like things you have to do because you’re too poor to afford central AC.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by reilly3000 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:24AM (#19824631)
Central air is a giant waste of energy, tantamount to leaving the hose on all day. Better construction materials and techniques obviate the need for AC - check out Passivhaus engineering http://www.phius.org/phius-certification-for-buildings-produ...
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by lostmsu on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:00AM (#19824911)
I am curious, with better insulation, would not CO2 levels inside be too high for comfortable living? When I close door to my office, it quickly grows to 1300ppm, and my office has giant holes.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by rightbyte on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:29AM (#19824999)
You have ventilation with heat exchange.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by lostmsu on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:39PM (#19828336)
How does that work?
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by reilly3000 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @06:09PM (#19829698)
The basic standard of Passive House design/retrofit is making sure the structure is airtight. There is a standard test called the blower-door test to see how much air is escaping through parts that should be sealed. The heat exchanger pulls in fresh outside air and filters it thoroughly. It can 'passively' adjust the air temp by warming it with household heat recycled from cooking, showers, etc, or selectively pulling in cooler air. The net effect is dramatically better indoor air quality with minuscule utility bills. More decent info here: http://www.heatspaceandlight.com/can-open-windows-passivhaus...
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:31PM (#19824255)
I think the idea is a well insulated building needs less heating / cooling.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:55PM (#19824342)
Insulation isn’t magic. Our house in Bangladesh was made of inches of concrete. It still got hot as hell, and everyone there who can afford it gets an air conditioner. Of course France’s climate is more moderate. But I’m genuinely shocked to learn that 95% of what purports to be a first world country can’t keep their houses at a fixed temperature year-round. I feel like my dad (who grew up in Bangladesh) when he went to West Virginia and found out there were places in America without indoor toilets.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday May 04, 2019 @09:40PM (#19830561)
Concrete is not an insulator.

It absorbs heat and releases it over time. It’s the direct opposite of an insulator, it’s thermal mass.

If it’s cold outside concrete will swiftly radiate away any heat it has retained and you’ll find yourself in quite the chilly building.

Good insulators for homes are products like Rockwool, Earthwool, and HardieFire (probably all Australian product names).

You can also get thermally reflective paints for roofs and exterior walls; fully sealed / sealable door and windows; double glazed windows with thermal film almost as good as triple glazed; polycarbonate window frames that have low thermal conductivity; HVAC systems that can transfer heat from warm roof space to living areas; products like Sun Lizard thermal transfer systems.

I’ve been in houses in Victoria and Tasmania where some or all of these systems have been implemented and the inside of the houses hover around 17 - 25 all year round with only passive systems.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by rayiner on Saturday May 04, 2019 @10:35PM (#19830755)
> I’ve been in houses in Victoria and Tasmania where some or all of these systems have been implemented and the inside of the houses hover around 17 - 25 all year round with only passive systems.

That’s an enormous range (62-75 F) that few Americans would tolerate.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by pen2l on Saturday May 04, 2019 @11:41PM (#19830995)
Then Americans should get their act together!

Seriously though, I'm an Asian now living in America -- in the cold part. For the first 15'ish years here, I despised the Winters because I could not tolerate them. But then I started lifting and doing cardio, and all of a sudden I could bear the cold just fine.

Americans are being wusses if they are so intolerant of that range. They need to buck up and hit the gym, like I finally did.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday May 04, 2019 @11:40PM (#19830992)
17 degrees inside in winter is comfortable with a jumper and pants of some form.

25 inside during summer is fine with light T-shirt and shorts.

Also, doesn’t the USA have the highest carbon footprint per capita?

Might wanna get that checked out.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by thatfrenchguy on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:04PM (#19833724)
You get used to it pretty quickly. And you need to because central AC is such a huge waste of electricity that in 50 years you won't have it ;-). Buy a sweater and decent t-shirt.

It's not a cost issue, as AC cost around 5-10k (https://climatisation.ooreka.fr/comprendre/prix_tarif_climat...), which is not much compared to the price of a house (150-300k), but a cultural one.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by benj111 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:46AM (#19825050)
You tend to have a cold season in France, and colder nights.

Yes you could have a stifling fortnight, but the thermal mass is enough to get you through relative blips like that.

Source grandparents have house in south of France with 1ft+ thick walls, no aircon. Stays nice and cool all summer.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by adrianN on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:33AM (#19824810)
Try adding some styrofoam or something to the outside of the concrete.

But as you note, France is not Bangladesh and the climate is mild enough that you just don't need AC.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday May 04, 2019 @09:43PM (#19830572)
If you’re going to use styrofoam please find a product with fire retardant properties.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by munk-a on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:00PM (#19823316)
Uh, hvac is how you measure wealth?
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by yeahitslikethat on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:39PM (#19823480)
Right. And a country that's not even part of the conversation not having hvac totally invalidates my point according to the maximum number of people who can downvote it.

It's simple math. They move out there to get a bigger house. Bigger houses consume more resources.

I really don't understand how that mathematical fact can be denied.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by zuppy on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:20AM (#19824975)
no, the downvotes are for how condescending your tone is (I haven't downvoted you).

I don't understand your point exactly. were you expecting to be no poor people in rich countries? well, news at 11, there are.

Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by EZ-E on Friday May 03, 2019 @05:36PM (#19822514)
They do but they need their cars to go to work and afford a living. It's usually not a lifestyle choice like an inner city dweller could choose to take public transport or a bike.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by educationdata on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:45PM (#19822927)
They also choose not get married or not having children or only have one child, which all have negative impact on the society. They think a tiny apartment is good, depending on bike or public transportation is good, only because they don't want raise children.
Re:You can’t judge housing affordability without knowing tra... by ben_w on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:57PM (#19823006)
Or do they tell themselves that the child they can’t afford would have been bad for the environment/society so it feels like they’re in control? “Sour grapes” is literally as old as Aesop’s Fables, if not even older.