As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". There's something very characteristic about both the taste and the consistency of milk and most replacement products are nowhere close. That's not to say milk is irreplaceable for all applications, but there's a tendency to over-hype healthy and organic replacement products that try to be "just as good" because we all want a sustainable, healthy replacement without sacrificing anything at all, but belying reality is hardly going to get us there.
Personally, I feel more attracted to the idea that it's better to do something than nothing at all. You don't have to go vegan tomorrow, if people just ate less meat and started thinking about this type of stuff as a luxury and not a right, we would've come a long way. Personally, milk in my coffee is non-negotiable. Bacon for breakfast? Well, I hardly need it every day, or even every week, so I'm open to discuss frequency.
As the costs of subsidized, unhealthy food rise, consumption will decline. This, of course, assumes that the demand is induced by artificially low prices. If people consume just as much high-fructose corn syrup at higher prices, then you have a cultural challenge on your hands.
(As an aside, does anyone know the reasoning behind avoiding honey? I've even seen a software license that forbade it's use in any product that may directly or indirectly use or industrialize animal products, including honey).
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/honey-industry
In practise, the answer is because it's a form of exploitation and exploitation is considered Always Bad by the VS. It's probably easier to explain this to people than to try and nuance (ie soften) the stance. Not a criticism.
Oh, man, this is so true. I like cream in my coffee, but if the only thing available is non-dairy creamers, then taking it black is much preferable.
Could be bias. Dairy is my most-favoured food. Cheese, milk, yogurt, butter...
Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often.
But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point
https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra...
I was asking if they can force the cow to be in heat. change the ovulation cycle or whatever explains the thing I quoted.
This argument only works if you believe that animals are worthy of empathy, but many would rather live with the cognitive dissonance that animals are incapable of emotions than go through the hassle of changing their diet.
At my grandparents farm artificial insemination was used when there was no old enough bull present(this is on small villages in Romania, and to make you even more outraged animals like horses are still used for work).
Modern industrial scale agriculture is what we are talking about here, not one-off mom and pop farms that represent a drop in the bucket of dairy production.
About animals having feelings, I know very well, just that when nature says is time to get pregnant the cow is just an animal in heat(it is dangerous even and you must be careful around them)
Wild cattle were likely also older when they first calves as domesticated cattle are both bred to calve earlier and also forced too. Basically inseminated as early as physiologically possible.
Keep in mind also that dairy cattle are bred for optimal milk production which carry a lot of problems like mastitis, birth complications etc. and yes most dairy cattle are artificially inseminated.
Please link me to facts
>Wild cattle were likely also older when they first calves as domesticated cattle are both bred to calve earlier and also forced too. Basically inseminated as early as physiologically possible.
Please link , because I can't believe that a wild animal is in heat but decides not to follow the instincts, my cat got pregnant so freaking young I was afraid she would die. The animals do not decide this but if you have links to scientific paper where healthy individuals do not follow the natural instinct I want to see it.
I am not arguing for a camp or other, I want to clear up things when someone tells me things that at first glance seems as fake things people in cities that never seen an animal imagined. But I will change my mind if you provide the facts to read for myself.
As for choosing not to mate, I think there are studies showing that animals in captivity regularly refuse to mate. After all, in the wild there’s competition.
It’s also possible and not uncommon to alter feeding regimes to stimulate heifers to reach puberty faster than that which would happen in the wild.
The comment was meant to touch upon the question of whether dairy cattle live happy lifes. It’s hard to argue that they do, although it’s also hard to prove that they don’t. From an ethical humanitarian point of view which I think is totally appropriate when deciding what to eat, one can easily empathize with these animals by simple observation and a sprinkle of common sense. Whatever the facts are, dictated by whatever authority, may or may not make a huge difference.
I don’t think it matters so long as animals are impregnated forcefully by humans through artificial insemination while in captivity, there’s so little resemblance to the wild that any comparison is quite pointless.
Edit: I have education in agriculture and have both visited and worked at several dairy farms.
Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her?
Just if a female is hungry do I have the right to give it food? If she is ill do I have the right to heal her or I need to ask for permission? Same for pet owners.
Not sure hiw putting a plate of food in front of someone is comparable to putting your arm into a female’s birth canal with a canister of sperm.
Again, what you think is ok and not ok in terms of treating an animal, even pets, is part of your ethical framework. And it’s up to you to inform yourself in order to justify that framework to yourself. The burden of proof is not on anyone but you.
If you really care about the subject I encourage you to research it from all points of view. If you can, visit some dairy farms and make your own observations.
I did not heard of any magic way to make the cows have more milk, there is no need to have her get pregnant often, and the quality of the milk is related with the food quality. The quantity of the milk is something genetic, some cows just give more milk then others, and some races then other.
What I see from some responses her is that the facts were wrong, the cows are not forced in heat(nobody provided a link) and all the thread is based on morals/ethical stuff that I don't want to debate, I wanted to know if I am missing some information(I have no time and need to inform myself on how some bad farms do things because I am not promoting an ideology with facts I did not researched before)
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/product-safety-informa...
“Estrous Control and Synchrony in Cattle Exogenous hormones can mimic the hormones of the natural estrous cycle in cattle. By administering exogenous hormones, producers can control and synchronize estrus in breeding heifers and cows as well as shorten their estrous cycles. Producers can group animals according to the phase of their estrous cycle, which reduces management burdens. Some estrous synchrony regimens may also induce or advance estrus in animals that aren’t cycling (they’re anestrous). For example, a cow is normally anestrous after giving birth, and an estrous synchrony regimen may be used to advance her first heat after calving. This allows her to be bred again sooner. These drug regimens may also be used to advance the timing of the first heat in heifers at puberty.”
I never said that cattle are forced into heat. Most of western industrialized dairy production use artificial insemination though. That’s hardy controversial or in need of backing up with sources. Nothing ideological about it. You don’t think it qualifies as forcing an animal into pregnancy, well that’s up to you to fit into your ethics framework, nothing I can present as “fact” can change that.
It’s perfectly possible to improve the quality of milk (I.e. manipulate fat, protein and lactose contents) via altering feeding regimes. Hardly controversial, and quite common but in the west, through the use of feed concentrates with additives. Nothing ideological about this either.
As for hormone supplements to control heat, well, or sure why you find this hard to believe, but the again, your anecdotal experience maybe doesn’t support it. Do some basic research into western industrialized dairy production.
You say you don’t have time to research, but the you expect others to do it for you? Not really any constructive about that.
My comment was about a question that was asked: do dairy cattle live happy lives? I don’t believe it’s possible to answer that question with hard facts.
Why should I research since I am not the one that is promoting an agenda, someone said X and I asked for links to read that X is true. People that say that X is true but can't find the place where they found their claim then maybe it is super hard to find or maybe it does not exist.
I’m making quite incontroversial statements that should be trivial to verify if you have an inch of interest. I’m leaving it to you to make your own ethical considerations. I also gave you one source, and encourage you to explore more on your own. If you don’t to, fine, but then I don’t really see a point about going on about agendas and ideology.
That's not necessarily bad if you like that, there are lots of product substitutes that to a good job in their own right even if they aren't what they intended to replace. I cook and there are all sorts of good products that historically were intended to replace or augment something else and do their own thing well.
But as far as non dairy creamers go, it's just no a replacement for actual milk for me. Two similar, but noticeably different things.
That being said, they do make vegan creamer, never had any myself. It's still a specialty product though, most places that serve coffee, beyond coffee shops, are only going to have milk, half and half, and Coffee Mate/International Delight.