Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life, hooked up to a machine that sucks your calves food out of you, while they are dragged away for slaughter or to join the crew. After a handful lactations, or if you don’t produce enough, or you’re sick too often, you’re slaughtered too. Most of the time you’re indoors walking around in your own feces. Sound like a good life to you?

>Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life

Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often.

But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point

You most certainly can impregnate a cow that is unwilling. The following article is definitely biased, but the point still stands that the animals aren't exactly consenting to this.

https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra...

I know about artificial insemination, but you can't do it when you want, it only works when the cow is in heat. When a cow is in heat she behaves differently (she starts ridding other cows) so the farmer notices this and calls a veterinarian to inseminate the cow or bring a bull.

I was asking if they can force the cow to be in heat. change the ovulation cycle or whatever explains the thing I quoted.

Typically they're looking for a bull to do that job. Just because a woman is ovulating doesn't mean that she wants some other species to restrain her, anally violate her, and forcibly impregnate her.

This argument only works if you believe that animals are worthy of empathy, but many would rather live with the cognitive dissonance that animals are incapable of emotions than go through the hassle of changing their diet.

This are cows not humans, my experience is with real world cows that are raised outside on fields,when the cow is in heat she will start ridding other cows(yes cows become lesbians and "rape" other cows, I know your mind is blown now), a bull will smell her from a distance and will come to the cow, the cow is always wiling because is her nature, she is not a thinking human it is all instinct.

At my grandparents farm artificial insemination was used when there was no old enough bull present(this is on small villages in Romania, and to make you even more outraged animals like horses are still used for work).

Again, just because they are cows does not mean they do not have emotions. These animals are more than capable of feeling happiness, sadness, fear, pain, etc.

Modern industrial scale agriculture is what we are talking about here, not one-off mom and pop farms that represent a drop in the bucket of dairy production.

This is why I ask in my original comment that I replied if the industrial farms do something different to make the cows get pregnant faster, if yes I want to inform myself (so if you know what terms to search about, procedure names etc but don't make me search something that does not exist).

About animals having feelings, I know very well, just that when nature says is time to get pregnant the cow is just an animal in heat(it is dangerous even and you must be careful around them)

Emphasis on “during your entire life”. Yes in the wild, cattle would be naturally inclined to bear offspring annually, but may not always. Also, would eventually stop and live on to help care for the calves of younger individuals in the flock.

Wild cattle were likely also older when they first calves as domesticated cattle are both bred to calve earlier and also forced too. Basically inseminated as early as physiologically possible.

Keep in mind also that dairy cattle are bred for optimal milk production which carry a lot of problems like mastitis, birth complications etc. and yes most dairy cattle are artificially inseminated.

>Emphasis on “during your entire life”. Yes in the wild, cattle would be naturally inclined to bear offspring annually, but may not always. Also, would eventually stop and live on to help care for the calves of younger individuals in the flock.

Please link me to facts

>Wild cattle were likely also older when they first calves as domesticated cattle are both bred to calve earlier and also forced too. Basically inseminated as early as physiologically possible.

Please link , because I can't believe that a wild animal is in heat but decides not to follow the instincts, my cat got pregnant so freaking young I was afraid she would die. The animals do not decide this but if you have links to scientific paper where healthy individuals do not follow the natural instinct I want to see it.

I am not arguing for a camp or other, I want to clear up things when someone tells me things that at first glance seems as fake things people in cities that never seen an animal imagined. But I will change my mind if you provide the facts to read for myself.

Not sure what qualifies fact, as there are not a lot of wild bovine species left in world.

As for choosing not to mate, I think there are studies showing that animals in captivity regularly refuse to mate. After all, in the wild there’s competition.

It’s also possible and not uncommon to alter feeding regimes to stimulate heifers to reach puberty faster than that which would happen in the wild.

The comment was meant to touch upon the question of whether dairy cattle live happy lifes. It’s hard to argue that they do, although it’s also hard to prove that they don’t. From an ethical humanitarian point of view which I think is totally appropriate when deciding what to eat, one can easily empathize with these animals by simple observation and a sprinkle of common sense. Whatever the facts are, dictated by whatever authority, may or may not make a huge difference.

I don’t think it matters so long as animals are impregnated forcefully by humans through artificial insemination while in captivity, there’s so little resemblance to the wild that any comparison is quite pointless.

Edit: I have education in agriculture and have both visited and worked at several dairy farms.

I also don't care what happens in the wild, I care about facts and people that invent facts to support their claims. AFAIK we can't force impregnate an animal if it is not in heat, the animals that won't mate in captivity probably do not get in heat or from documentaries I seen they fail to get pregnant or keep the pregnancy (I seen one about pandas).

It’s true that you can’t impregnate an animal in heat, but once in heat you can obviously. It’s also possible to control heat with hormon supplements, which farmers regularly use to synchronize calfings in their herd.

Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her?

>Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her?

Just if a female is hungry do I have the right to give it food? If she is ill do I have the right to heal her or I need to ask for permission? Same for pet owners.

What point are you trying to make?

Not sure hiw putting a plate of food in front of someone is comparable to putting your arm into a female’s birth canal with a canister of sperm.

Again, what you think is ok and not ok in terms of treating an animal, even pets, is part of your ethical framework. And it’s up to you to inform yourself in order to justify that framework to yourself. The burden of proof is not on anyone but you.

Well, I can’t produce the hard facts. I’m talking about what I know from anecdotal and educational experience. I don’t have sources at hand. Sorry :)

If you really care about the subject I encourage you to research it from all points of view. If you can, visit some dairy farms and make your own observations.

I have a ton of experience with farms in third world countries, we did not feed them antibiotics or hormones or special food, only grass or other related plant thing from our grounds. For a long time we had a bull that would do the job when the cows were in heat but when we reduced the number of cows it is too expensive to have a bull and we asked a veterinarian to do the artificial insemination.

I did not heard of any magic way to make the cows have more milk, there is no need to have her get pregnant often, and the quality of the milk is related with the food quality. The quantity of the milk is something genetic, some cows just give more milk then others, and some races then other.

What I see from some responses her is that the facts were wrong, the cows are not forced in heat(nobody provided a link) and all the thread is based on morals/ethical stuff that I don't want to debate, I wanted to know if I am missing some information(I have no time and need to inform myself on how some bad farms do things because I am not promoting an ideology with facts I did not researched before)

Do allow me to exemplify how simple research can back up some of my uncontroversial observations.

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/product-safety-informa...

“Estrous Control and Synchrony in Cattle Exogenous hormones can mimic the hormones of the natural estrous cycle in cattle. By administering exogenous hormones, producers can control and synchronize estrus in breeding heifers and cows as well as shorten their estrous cycles. Producers can group animals according to the phase of their estrous cycle, which reduces management burdens. Some estrous synchrony regimens may also induce or advance estrus in animals that aren’t cycling (they’re anestrous). For example, a cow is normally anestrous after giving birth, and an estrous synchrony regimen may be used to advance her first heat after calving. This allows her to be bred again sooner. These drug regimens may also be used to advance the timing of the first heat in heifers at puberty.”

That’s your prerogative of course.

I never said that cattle are forced into heat. Most of western industrialized dairy production use artificial insemination though. That’s hardy controversial or in need of backing up with sources. Nothing ideological about it. You don’t think it qualifies as forcing an animal into pregnancy, well that’s up to you to fit into your ethics framework, nothing I can present as “fact” can change that.

It’s perfectly possible to improve the quality of milk (I.e. manipulate fat, protein and lactose contents) via altering feeding regimes. Hardly controversial, and quite common but in the west, through the use of feed concentrates with additives. Nothing ideological about this either.

As for hormone supplements to control heat, well, or sure why you find this hard to believe, but the again, your anecdotal experience maybe doesn’t support it. Do some basic research into western industrialized dairy production.

You say you don’t have time to research, but the you expect others to do it for you? Not really any constructive about that.

My comment was about a question that was asked: do dairy cattle live happy lives? I don’t believe it’s possible to answer that question with hard facts.

>You say you don’t have time to research, but the you expect others to do it for you? Not really any constructive about that.

Why should I research since I am not the one that is promoting an agenda, someone said X and I asked for links to read that X is true. People that say that X is true but can't find the place where they found their claim then maybe it is super hard to find or maybe it does not exist.

Who is promoting an agenda?

I’m making quite incontroversial statements that should be trivial to verify if you have an inch of interest. I’m leaving it to you to make your own ethical considerations. I also gave you one source, and encourage you to explore more on your own. If you don’t to, fine, but then I don’t really see a point about going on about agendas and ideology.