Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by wmf on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @12:06AM (#1978085)

Oracle has pretty much said, Java is for paying customers.

Actually, they said Java on phones is for paying customers and Java on servers will always be free. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/06/oracle_dueling_jvms/

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by bad_user on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @02:08AM (#1978280)

> Java on servers will always be free

Great, so I'm free to take a server implementation and port it to mobile phones, right?

Free as in what?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by rbanffy on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @02:29AM (#1978326)

As long as you base it on OpnenJDK and don't claim it's Java (you would need the TCK for that) you would be perfectly fine. Just remember not to step on additional patents Oracle may have for the mobile space.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by eftpotrm on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @09:09AM (#1979037)

So you can't cliam it does what it has to to be useful and you run the risk of unknown lawsuits on hidden grounds from a large and litigious company who you're trying to outmaneuver to avoid giving them money.

You want to try and build a business doing that?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by rbanffy on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @10:43AM (#1979351)

> So you can't cliam it does what it has to to be useful

You can always claim it's based on OpenJDK.

> and you run the risk of unknown lawsuits on hidden grounds from a large and litigious company who you're trying to outmaneuver to avoid giving them money

I won't be the one to indulge such a paranoid delusion. Oracle won't sue you for using OpenJDK because they know it would be a lost cause.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by mbreese on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @11:37AM (#1979535)

> Oracle won't sue you for using OpenJDK because they know it would be a lost cause.

Even if it's based on OpenJDK, you still wouldn't get any patent protection. I wouldn't put my trust in Oracle to not sue me over anything...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by rbanffy on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @11:50AM (#1979603)

You would. GPLv2 provides an implicit patent grant. Oracle wouldn't be able to touch you.

See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1978507

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by mbreese on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @05:03PM (#1980821)

The weakness of the GPL's patent protection was one of the reasons for the move to v3. I think that you're vastly overestimating the 'implicit' protection that the GPL provides, which to my knowledge has never been tested in court. Even the FSF states this in their FAQ on v3:

In many countries, distributing software under GPLv2 provides recipients with an implicit patent license to exercise their rights under the GPL.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#v2OrLaterPatentLice...

Many countries, but not all... and it's not clear in the case of v2.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by rbanffy on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @06:41PM (#1981154)

> The weakness of the GPL's patent protection was one of the reasons for the move to v3

I agree that v3 is more clear about patents than v2, but it's unfair to call a protection that was never used (possibly because it has been a successful deterrent) "weak". It can only be weak if it doesn't protect. So far, it has been effective.

I think the wording in v2 is clear enough. One cannot impose any additional restriction and cannot force fees on users and re-distributors. That protects not only against patents but from anything that looks like one.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by wmf on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @11:09AM (#1979446)

Basically the new policy is that Oracle develops the JVM and you use it. You don't develop or port the JVM. Because this is totally acceptable to 99% of Java (app) developers, Java will live on. It's too big to fail.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by kls on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @04:12PM (#1980633)

I think you miss the point, it's not acceptable to the mobile Market, Java's mobile offerings are a joke at best and sinister at worst. It took Android to create a competitive platform in the mobile space and Oracle is putting up every effort to squash any runtime work for the mobile space. It is relevant to Java because mobile is the future, tablets and mobile devices will become the dominate computing platform in the next few years and without inovation in that space, Java will be relegated to a language of the past. It is pretty clear that Oracle is dead set on killing Java mobile and I don't think it is because they see a future in Java ME or think they are working on a superior offering. Rather, I am more inclined to believe that they plan to help position the market for Apple to own the mobile platform. Apple being a vertical vendor like Oracle is very complementary to Oracle's world vision and vice versa. Allowing Apache to certify an alternative JVM would allow work to be done to optimize it for mobile. That is the real story behind all of these wrangling.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by Swannie on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @05:24PM (#1980905)

Java was a safe bet for enterprise software companies - it had wide vendor support: Sun, IBM, WebLogic, Oracle, Apple.

It also had a strong community: Apache, JBoss, etc.

However WebLogic and Sun are now part of Oracle. Apple has backed off on involvement. This leaves Oracle and IBM. IBM are masters of maintaining technology, so we know Java will be maintained. But the ecosystem is being eroded.

If the community is being eroded too, Java advocates everywhere will look somewhere else. Just look at the thread here!

COBOL was too big to fail too. This will not be acceptable to many forward looking enterprise software companies. Expect to see an increasing number of "app servers" appear for Python et al.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by kls on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @08:51PM (#1981510)

Java advocates everywhere will look somewhere else. Just look at the thread here!

Right, the writing is already on the wall, because guys like us have already made our mind up that it is on the wall. They have lost the mind-share. Almost every reason for Java's ascension, has been eroded away, the future of Java is exactly what everyone was running from when they found Java. That's why I asked, Oracle's refusal to work with Apache marks the beginning of the end in my mind. It pretty much states openly their plan. The plan that all the "fear mongers" where warning us about. I asked people thought on the Java replacement, because I really would love to know what people see as the successor. For me at least now with the Apache thing decided, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of "to what".

[ Parent | on HN ]