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Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by taneq on Thursday April 25, 2019 @12:50AM (#19745075)
They may just be taking a calmer view of EV demand rather than betting the farm at every turn like Tesla. One or two quarters of running at capacity on a brand new factory isn't enough reason to massively upgrade your production capacity, if you think it's just a hump and that demand will settle down again. The Model 3 may be "affordable" compared with the Model S / X, but US$35k is still luxury car territory.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by distances on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:17AM (#19746077)
> The Model 3 may be "affordable" compared with the Model S / X, but US$35k is still luxury car territory.

Indeed, Model 3 is still very far from affordable. In Finland it sells starting at $70,600 (taxes included). I'm assuming there are also import duties from the US, though don't know the details. Needless to say, at this price point there are probably more people looking for an apartment than a car.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:27AM (#19745284)
Agreed. Seems like Tesla may have misjudged the model 3 demand and should have increased the number of production lines more slowly. I think in Fremont factory has 6 lines. One for X, one for S, and 4 for the model 3. Seems like they should just move one or two of the lines from model 3 to the model Y, which shares 75% of the same parts instead of committing to building several new lines in Reno and China.

While the model 3 may be luxury, it looks crazy cheap compared to the electric Audi, Volvo, BMW, and Porsche competitors... doubly so if you consider range. The model 3 even looks pretty good on a cost to own basis compared to non-luxury cars like the Toyota Camry or Honda accord.

The cheapest Tesla (around $40k these days), isn't too far off the average cost of a new car ($34,000) and most will save easily $6k in maintenance and gas over the life of the car. I suspect most would consider the model 3 interior too spartan and plasticy to be consider luxury.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by novaRom on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:59AM (#19746261)
>> While the model 3 may be luxury, it looks crazy cheap compared to the electric Audi, Volvo, BMW, and Porsche competitors...

I tried Tesla test drive and one thing I don't like is how cheap it feels inside. Low quality materials. So you cannot compare just their prices without mentioning materials and build quality.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:26AM (#19746383)
I rented a Tesla S (75d I believe) for 3 days. Felt pretty awesome, and stomping on the accelerator put a smile on my face every time. The nav system was a pleasure, actually better than Google Nav on a top of the line phone. The voice recognition for nav and music playing worked really well.

I've used similar nav systems from BMW, Subaru, and Toyota and they seemed like lame software running on a 5-10 year old phone. Poor touch screens, smaller screens, poor voice recognition, and poor nav. I'd rather they just have an aux port for music and let me hang my own tablet on the dash somewhere.

Overall fit/finish for the model S was not as nice as an Audi I've been in, but was plenty good for me.

The model 3 is of course substantially less luxurious. Single smaller display instead of two displays. Many less buttons/switches. I've only done a test drive in the 3. But I do have several friends that have switches from S to 3, or 3 to S, and they speak very highly of the 3. No doubt the 3 is built to a much lower price point, and you can tell. I think part of the Tesla plan is to have you touch nothing but the steering wheel or the display. I suspect the voice commands will get better over time, they already handle nav and music well.

But when it comes down to it, I'd pick performance, handling, and range over more expensive interior.

Not like Audi, Volvo, or BMW is selling anything close to the model 3 price and range. I drove a Chevy Volt (comparable on price, but not so much on range or performance) and it was nowhere close to the model 3.

Who is willing to buy a slower car and pay 50% more for 2/3rds the range just to get a nicer interior? Not me.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by neuronic on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:34AM (#19746418)
> I've used similar nav systems from BMW, Subaru, and Toyota and they seemed like lame software running on a 5-10 year old phone. Poor touch screens, smaller screens, poor voice recognition, and poor nav. I'd rather they just have an aux port for music and let me hang my own tablet on the dash somewhere.

Thought the same, but the newest Volkswagen generation has improved a lot. Their touch screens and software feel much much more usable than even 2 years ago.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:52AM (#19746492)
Comparable to google Nav on a new iphone or pixel 3? If so, I'll definitely have to keep an eye on the future VW electric cars.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by neuronic on Thursday April 25, 2019 @10:29AM (#19748503)
No, definitely not but they have still made leaps from previous iterations. And I think that's a very positive development.

My subjective impression is it basically went from major annoyance to "quite usable". I recently used it on a trip from Northern Germany to Amsterdam and it worked really well.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by dannyw on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:04AM (#19746291)
People expected $35k before incentives. That means an out of pocket cost of approx $28k.

People did not expect $36k. $28k vs $36k is HUGE.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:37AM (#19746428)
Agreed, it is huge. Potential market at $36k vs $28k is quite a bit smaller. At least Tesla bundled in autopilot at zero extra cost.

It's not as good as originally promised, but still a pretty good deal in my opinion. Just depends how much people are willing to spend for good acceleration, avoiding trips to gas stations, and avoiding spending $1000-$1200 of gas per year. Of course electricity is not free either. My last fill up in California was $3.99 a gallon and I spent $51. I do that about 4-5 times a month.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by taneq on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:01AM (#19746534)
> At least Tesla bundled in autopilot at zero extra cost.

For about 15 minutes, before they rolled that back.

Honestly that's the biggest red flag, to me - the chaotic mix of announcements, retractions, chops and changes to their pricing and marketing strategy. As an outsider it feels like the company has cool tech but lacks adult supervision.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:33AM (#19746676)
Er, what? Go to https://www.tesla.com/model3, click on buy, next, next. You should see: "Autopilot Included". The car costs $39,500.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sbov on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:51AM (#19746779)
You have to call in to get the actual base model - they removed the option to order it from the website.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:02AM (#19746837)
Yes, I ignored that one. The $39,500 model with autopilot is right on the website. It's not the promised $35k model, but it does include autopilot.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sbov on Thursday April 25, 2019 @12:06PM (#19749541)
If something is "zero extra cost" I would expect the base model to have it.

Beyond that, what you looked at used to cost $37,500 with autopilot as an optional $3k addon. Now it always includes autopilot but costs $2k more. Again, not exactly "zero extra cost".

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by nradov on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:01AM (#19745134)
Just to be pedantic, in the US market $35K is technically the low end of premium car territory. Actually luxury car territory starts significant higher.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by argonaut on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:59AM (#19745424)
This is being unnecessarily pedantic. "Premium" is synonymous with "entry-level luxury" (one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_vehicle#Premium_compact...).

Cars in the 35-45k range are routinely referred to colloquially as "luxury" cars. I agree you can quibble with this terminology, but it is absolutely common to refer to these cars as luxury, albeit the absolute low end of luxury.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by wil421 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:33AM (#19745321)
Significantly higher? A brand new 3 series is 40k, an Audi A4 is 39k, and a C Class is 41k. I’m not even looking at the smaller 4 door models from Audi and Benz which are even less than the Model 3. Maybe Europe gets a smaller 4 door BMW.

I didn’t even count the offerings from Japan which are even less.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by nradov on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:38AM (#19745341)
An Audi A4 is really not a luxury vehicle in any meaningful sense.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by lancewiggs on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:24AM (#19745547)
That’s a statement that’s easy to make from a privileged position. Luxury is in the eyes of the beholder, and that car costs two thirds of the median income (before tax, healthcare, housing, food) in the USA.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by nradov on Thursday April 25, 2019 @11:15PM (#19754544)
Privilege has nothing to do with it. It's a simple matter of market segment definition. It's rather silly to pretend that something like a base model A4 is a luxury vehicle when it contains barely any luxury features beyond the logo on the grill. By comparison a top trim Honda Accord lists for $35K but no one considers that a luxury car.

Personally I drive a cheap car. Average new car prices have gotten crazy high relative to median incomes, enabled by low interest long term financing. A lot of buyers are ending up overextended.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by georgerobinson on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:38AM (#19746161)
It's the same in Western Europe, the difference is that cheap lease deals and finance have made them affordable for a significant amount of people and so these cars are extremely common. You see more 3 series than Toyota's or Hyundai's.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by oblio on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:47AM (#19746204)
Are you sure about that? https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46774053

Every sales graph I've ever seen has relatively cheap cars such as the Fiesta, Golf, Corsa, etc. at the top. Not big Mercedes or BMWs.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by georgerobinson on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:46AM (#19746470)
Yes. I'm not saying that people in the market for a Ford Fiesta are instead going out and buying a 3 series. People who want a hatchback and going out and buying hatchbacks.

But people who want saloons and estate cars are largely buying from the three Germans, and not Japanese or Korean.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:21AM (#19747274)
I've heard one of the more popular cars people moved from to buy a model 3 is the toyota prius... definitely not a luxury car.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by georgerobinson on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:52PM (#19753267)
Toyota Prius do not exist in Western Europe outside Uber. They are synonymous with Uber driver and rarely ever bought for private use.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:58PM (#19753315)
Odd. They are extremely common in California. My office mate has one, her second after giving the first to her daughter. A friend has a motorcycle accident and TWO Prius were involved.

So in the USA, or at least in California they are very common. Part of their popularity is their fleet use makes them direct cheap in the used market, and they tend to be pretty reliable despite the complexity of two separate drive trains.

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by georgerobinson on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:35PM (#19753523)
I think one of the issues is that the Prius starts from $30,000 here - which is quite a lot - and a lot of cheaper, but still economical cars are available for much less.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by sliken on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:02PM (#19753686)
Ah, they start around $23k here, and available used from fleet use for $12-$13k with 50-60k miles.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by wil421 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:21AM (#19745534)
That’s a pretty laughable statement unless you’re in Europe and get the lower trims we don’t. Pretty much all car reviews put the A4 in the luxury sedan segment[1]. Not the segment with the Accord or Camry.

Following your logic the model 3 isn’t a luxury car either.

[1]https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15379432/small-entry-...

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by arethuza on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:21AM (#19746096)
Obviously different markets classify "luxury cars" is very different ways leading to the confusion e.g.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/top-10-best-lux...

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by wil421 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:36AM (#19747381)
Those are not mid size sedans. Some of those are not even Sedans like the Range Rover and I-Pace.
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by arethuza on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:43AM (#19747439)
The point I was trying to make is that different markets define "luxury" in different ways - I don't think anyone here in the UK would call an Audi A4 a luxury car - even at its highest spec level.

Edit: Sort of reminds me of the differences in defining "class" between the US and the UK :-)

Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by BoorishBears on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:29AM (#19745560)
If the A4 isn’t a luxury vehicle, the Model 3 is what?
Re:Tesla Posts Big Quarterly Loss as Its Electric-Car Sales Lag by supernovae on Thursday April 25, 2019 @09:57AM (#19748139)
A Jeep Wrangler will cost you 35k for a base model these days and 40k for a "premium" that well, most people still upgrade and tweak for 10s of thousands of more when they get home.

My volt was super expensive in 2011, but 8 years on it still drives like the day it came from the factory. Unlike my Jeep (which i love) that is only a year old and already has aches and pains and squeeks and of course, drinks gas like its going of style.

BTW, when people shop for cars, the purchase price isn't the TCO. How much fuel will you be using and how much maintenance will you dump into it?