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Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by apo on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:12PM (#19742633)
My own pet peeve in non-fiction, particularly the kind that appears on blogs: the excruciating warmup before the author finally gets to the point of the post.

I know why this happens. When you sit down to write, you don't know what exactly you're going to say. You may even be anxious about it. Then, an idea sparks your imagination and you start writing stuff. The warmup that comes out initially gets you on track. Nothing wrong with that.

The harm is keeping that crap in the post. Delete it! If I don't understand what I'm about to read in the first paragraph, I'm probably done.

Something else I don't like: writers who use too many words. The telltale sign of a first draft is the vast quantity of words (and even entire sentences) that don't need to be there.

A single edit with the goal of ruthlessly eliminating every unnecessary word works wonders for any first draft.

Edit: On the topic of fiction, the author gives a beautiful example from the Wizard of Oz:

> When Dorothy stood in the doorway and looked around, she could see nothin but the great gray prairie on every side. Not a tree nor a house broke the broad sweep of flat country that reached the edge of the sky in all directions. The sun had baked the plowed land into a gray mass, with little cracks running through it. Even the grass was not green, for the sun had burned the tops of the long blades until they were the same gray color to be seen everywhere. Once the house had been painted, but the sun blistered the paint and the rains washed it away, and now the house was as dull and gray as everything else. [continues]

I haven't read the book but this passage alone makes me want to.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by tannerc on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @08:32PM (#19743882)
This can be a highly effective form of writing when done well.

A strong setup can certainly pull readers in. The problem is often most inexperienced writers use such a setup to clear away their "mind fog" and get to the point. And once the words are on the page it's hard to remove them (nobody wants wasted effort).

My guidance to new writers is always this: start with two bulleted items. First is a question or priming sentence. Second is the conclusion the reader will takeaway after reading what you've written.

Once you have those two bullet points you make them part of your first paragraph AND use them to structure the entirety of the piece (just add more bullet items between the first and second points).

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @11:33PM (#19744739)
Just to add onto this, I often write the sort of lead in paragraphs the GP describes last or nearly last. So it’s absolutely not the case that I used them as a way to clear my mind—the primary point was already there, I just wanted to introduce it a different way.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by rimliu on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:46AM (#19745630)
It may be a highly effective form of writing for story telling. It is extremely annoying for technical blog posts. It's kind of a youtubezation of the writing.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by nn3 on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:19PM (#19742687)
It is even worse in internet recipes. The authors tend to go on and on about their feelings, family and personal stories before finally getting to the point how to actually cook the dish. I usually have to skip several paragraphs.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by nsxwolf on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:25PM (#19742739)
This Chrome extension extracts just the recipe from those long winded blogs. It's more vital to me than ad blockers.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/recipe-filter/ahlc...

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by oh_sigh on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:33PM (#19742796)
My trick is to ctrl-f for 'tbsp' whenever I hit a recipe blog site. In their prose it is always referred to as 'tablespoons'(if at all), and the first reference to tbsp is usually in the ingredients list at the actual recipe.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by zwieback on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @10:52PM (#19744613)
Genius! I'm so tired of scrolling over 20 pictures of utensils and ingredients.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by jbattle on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:56PM (#19742976)
I think that 'fluff' is actually interesting content to the bulk of people landing on that page. I know folks who read recipes for fun, I expect they genuinely enjoy reading the color commentary just like I might enjoy reading some 'extraneous' content in a movie/album review
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by munificent on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @08:39PM (#19743915)
I follow a lot of cooking subreddits. I think it was charming in the earlier days of food blogging, but today it seems every recipe reader is beyond tired of it.

Part of the problem is that almost every food blogger is emulating the exact same character. It's the same harried but still whipping something creative together, educated but conspicuously mentions liking a glass of wine, love-my-kids-but-man-do-they-get-on-my-nerves persona. It's the 2010's white sitcom parent writ large.

I'd read a lot more of the prose on these blogs if they didn't all sound the same.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by adelie on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @07:21PM (#19743487)
am one of those people!

depends a lot on the commentary, though - i probably don't care about your feelings (sorry) or descriptive prose. on the other hand, when i'm looking up a recipe from another culture, i really value commentary on the background or history of the dish.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by kaycebasques on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:22PM (#19742712)
I always assumed that this is an SEO practice?
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by scolby33 on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:42PM (#19742869)
I think it’s because the recipe itself cannot be copyrighted but the blog post around it can.

I know I read this somewhere, but can’t find the reference now. So, take this with a grain of salt or a starting point for your own research :)

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by aetherson on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @06:19PM (#19743134)
More people read those blog posts as entertainment than use the recipe.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by dspillett on Thursday April 25, 2019 @03:00AM (#19745694)
I'm not sure how a section of information that is often largely irrelevant to the recipe (despite mentioning a few key terms) is going to be a valuable SEO practise.

I assume people are trying to be the next online cooking personality who gets to publish a book. I've seen a couple in shops with pictures of YouTube recipe demonstration people on the cover.

Also, more text is more "content" to mix adverts into.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by zimpenfish on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:17AM (#19746353)
> I assume people are trying to be the next online cooking personality who gets to publish a book.

I just assume that they associate recipes and foods with times and places and people (generally happily) and it's akin to "do you remember that time mother cooked weasel?" kind of conversations you'd have with people, except on a blog.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by dspillett on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:46AM (#19747035)
That it probably the case for those that are put together more as a blog for friends and family to peruse.

But a lot of the sites I've seen don't feel that way. They feel like they are desperately trying to feel that way though (the old "sincerity is key: once you can fake it you win" skit).

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by kaycebasques on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:26PM (#19750414)
> Also, more text is more "content" to mix adverts into.

Ah, yes. Of course. This is the most plausible explanation IMO.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by Steve44 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:04AM (#19746017)
Something I read a couple of weeks ago discussed this. From what I remember it’s to increase the time a user spends on a page, this increases the page ranking in Google; ISTR it was called dwell time.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by EForEndeavour on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:37AM (#19747393)
ISTR = I Seem To Recall(?)

Acronym expanded for the benefit of anyone else who's browsing HN before coffee and would have taken a similarly embarrassing length of time to infer the likely meaning of this one, which I'd never seen before.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by Steve44 on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:55AM (#19755350)
I've always known is as "I Seem To Remember" and I thought it was in common use. It's been around for as long as I can remember, apologies for assuming.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by munchbunny on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @06:00PM (#19743015)
That was the first thing that came to mind for me too. Usually the recipes come after two pages of exposition and 5 ads. It gets especially bad on my phone because then all I see are ads.

That's why I love King Arthur Flour's recipes (among others). Short intro, and then it gets right into how to get more consistency and quality out of the recipe or how to do variations on the recipe. It's not another long winded essay that boils down to "I cook this for my family."

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by asdff on Thursday April 25, 2019 @03:35PM (#19751708)
Some websites still have a print friendly view that spits out the recipe nice and succinctly usually on one page
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by ghaff on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:17PM (#19742673)
When I was an industry analyst, my boss called it "throat clearing." Sometimes I do construct something that IMO serves as a nice intro even if some people here would prefer it to be "Just the facts, maam." But, yeah, I not infrequently just end up deleting a few paragraphs.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by kazinator on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @08:36PM (#19743895)
> I know why this happens.

I don't think you've nailed it.

It's all calculated, just like that exquisite art piece someone crafted just for that article.

It's designed to string you along to keep you on that page, and to bloat the content so more ads can be inserted.

Also, don't forget that every word is also potentially a search-engine stuffer. Some verbiage is machine-generated for this purpose.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by zimpenfish on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:13AM (#19746333)
> A single edit with the goal of ruthlessly eliminating every unnecessary word works wonders for any first draft.

"A single edit, eliminating unnecessary words, works wonders for any first draft."

It's a cheap shot (that I learned from Language Log) but if you're going to live by the sword...

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by EdwardCoffin on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:38PM (#19751213)
> A single edit with the goal of ruthlessly eliminating every unnecessary word

This phrasing makes it clear that the goal of that edit is to eliminate every unnecessary words.

> A single edit, eliminating unnecessary words

This phrasing implies that just one edit is needed, no particular focus, and is satisfied by eliminating some unnecessary words.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by zimpenfish on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:36AM (#19755492)
> This phrasing makes it clear that the goal of that edit is to eliminate every unnecessary words.

By your own interpretation, we can get rid of "ruthlessly", no?

> This phrasing implies that just one edit is needed

I don't think it does, even when disconnected from the rest of the sentence. It's fairly clear to me that it's talking about an edit where you "eliminat[e] unnecessary words" which may or may not be part of a greater editing process.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by sutterbomb on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:25AM (#19746642)
Eliminating unnecessary words works wonders.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by stordoff on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:46AM (#19746746)
I don't agree that those are unnecessary - you lose the idea of an idea, and coming back to a work later can help you identify what is unnecessary.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by zimpenfish on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:39AM (#19746713)
Neccesary words? Wonderful!
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by EForEndeavour on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:39AM (#19747406)
Why use many word when few word do trick?
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by billfruit on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @10:08PM (#19744415)
Not just in blogs, rambling, long winded style common at The Atlantic and New Yorker are excruciating too.

Also referring to personal anecdotes of random persons to further a point.

I also find the use of statistics/citing numbers from studies to prove a point, a most boring way to argue a point in writing.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by asdff on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:01PM (#19751958)
It's like there are two tiers of writing at The Atlantic/New Yorker: A nice well written piece on a major topic that leaves you with something to think about during the day, or 8+ paragraphs on something like the emotional impact of a specific spring time NYC odor, or the perils of hiring a dog walker in Brooklyn.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by EForEndeavour on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:46AM (#19747463)
> I also find the use of statistics/citing numbers from studies to prove a point, a most boring way to argue a point in writing.

This definitely depends on the point being argued, and the rigour expected by the audience. For any vaguely technical subject, it's quite possible to cite statistics to great effect, though it may not always be necessary.

Actually, your comment made me think about how I respond to statistics in non-technical writing, say, in a news article or forum post. My gut reaction seems to be: "how is the author going to spin this fact, and what other evidence did they conveniently ignore because it contradicts their argument?"

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by kristianc on Thursday April 25, 2019 @05:57AM (#19746518)
> My own pet peeve in non-fiction, particularly the kind that appears on blogs: the excruciating warmup before the author finally gets to the point of the post.

Pet peeve of mine - If we could eliminate the "I appear to be talking about something happening today, but am actually talking about something that happened in 1840" article setup entirely, that would make me very happy. It was clever at first, but you can now usually see the setup coming a mile off.

Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by ddxxdd on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:59PM (#19743008)
On many of my favorite Youtube videos, that "excrutiating" warm-up is part of the appeal. It feels more like a mysterious build-up towards an exciting payoff, when done right. That can be generalized towards writing or any other media.
Re:Bad Habits Creeping into Your Writing? by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @07:56PM (#19743710)
If you do that, the payoff had better be there.

But even then, you probably should be very selective when you do it. If the point is to entertain, it may be OK. (The Avengers Endgame is just over three hours. I bet there's some buildup in that.)

But don't do it if the point is to communicate. I read somewhere that someone said (either about physics or CS): "There's 50 times as much going on as I can keep up with, and I only operate at 2% efficiency. So there's this factor of 2500 working against me, and every day I fall seven years further behind." In that kind of of environment, if I read your stuff, you'd better not waste my time.