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Re:Mozilla WebThings by hathawsh on Thursday April 18, 2019 @07:54PM (#19695831)
Whoa, at the end of the article there's an announcement about "WebThings Gateway for Wireless Routers". Is this the beginning of apps for routers? I've talked about the idea before:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18887403

I'm excited to hear more.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by paavoova on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:01AM (#19697001)
What exactly differentiates "apps" here from regular programs you can install on routers? If your router runs a hosted system such as Linux and isn't locked down (e.g. OpenWRT), you can install/compile for any existing program that supports the architecture and system. Installing tor as you in linked post is just "opkg install tor". A lot of packages have webgui frontends, too.

Edit: I've read the article and Mozilla even mentions reskinning/basing off of OpenWRT. Which only puzzles me even more given you write "the beginning of apps for routers" as if OpenWRT/pfSense/etc doesn't exist.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by hathawsh on Friday April 19, 2019 @04:27AM (#19697916)
Grandma can't compile and install OpenWRT packages. The idea is to let developers create apps (server apps) that anyone, especially Grandma, can install on their router. The experience should be similar to installing apps on iOS or Android phones.

NAS apps sound interesting, but not what I'm looking for. Router apps have untapped potential because routers are relatively inexpensive, always on, and have a real Internet address, unlike the rest of the home/office network.

What kind of apps would developers create? All kinds! Some would succeed and some would fail, just like phone apps. The point is to unleash developer creativity. Today, nearly all Internet traffic is routed to Netflix, Google, Amazon, and Facebook. Over the next few years, consumers will buy millions upon millions of upgraded routers. I think they would like to buy routers that do more for them than send all their traffic to a tiny number of huge companies.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by kgiori on Friday April 19, 2019 @04:27PM (#19702716)
Several good points. Only one aspect made me laugh. Even if I can "opkg install <pkg_name>" to run the Mozilla WebThings Gateway, I'm lazy. I'd rather buy a box that maintains my privacy and is updated periodically with security and feature enhancements. What made me laugh is that I don't fit your stereotype. I first used ddwrt around 2003 then switched to OpenWrt and convinced QCA to adopt it as the basis for QSDK when 11ac routers came out. And if all goes well with my daughter-in-law, I'll become a Grandma in 2-3 weeks. But I am looking forward to easily installing apps, especially those that respect my privacy. :)
Re:Mozilla WebThings by hathawsh on Friday April 19, 2019 @07:35PM (#19703904)
Congratulations on becoming a grandmother! Sorry I didn't think of a better example of the kind of user I'm thinking of. "Bob the accountant", mentioned by someone else, is probably a better example.

I've also run several generations of OpenWRT and I've decided it doesn't make sense for me to spend time maintaining it. For example, I'm interested in installing something like Zulip (an open source team chat service) on my router, but I know from experience that anything special I install in OpenWRT requires custom configuration and will need regular manual maintenance and upgrades. It's a big time commitment and I have to be careful with my time.

In a better world, I would tap to install Zulip on my router, automatic upgrades would be enabled by default, and I would be prompted to also sign up for a Zulip-oriented encrypted backup subscription service. Having spent only a minute or two to install Zulip, I would gladly pay for the backup service since the developers proved that they respect my time. I would no longer feel the need to sign up for another cloud service. Privacy would win!

Re:Mozilla WebThings by kgiori on Saturday April 20, 2019 @09:12PM (#19709951)
Your desire not to have to admininster OpenWrt yourself is legit. I don't either. The Mozilla WebThings Gateway integration work is being done by Mozilla so that they can offer the result to OEMs who would sell a product with it already installed, and the Mozilla team would maintain the sw. So consumers at any tech skill levels won't have to be sysadmins in order to achieve the privacy and security protections they deserve.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by Someone on Friday April 19, 2019 @07:35AM (#19698651)
”The experience should be similar to installing apps on iOS or Android phones.

[…]

What kind of apps would developers create? All kinds!”

Give what we know of applications on smartphones, I fear “all kinds” will include many, many that claim to be anti-virus/anti-hacking/pro-security, but steal data instead, and that grandma, grandpa and zillions of others will happily install them, possibly even pay for them.

Using https prevents your router from reading most of what you send, but that also prevents software in your router from doing much, so I fear the router’s software would have to MITM your https connections to do anything useful.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by vageli on Friday April 19, 2019 @08:04AM (#19698816)
> Grandma can't compile and install OpenWRT packages. The idea is to let developers create apps (server apps) that anyone, especially Grandma, can install on their router. The experience should be similar to installing apps on iOS or Android phones.

Does grandma even _want_ to install packages on their router (which is likely a modem combo provided by the cable company), let alone know what a router is? Grandma wouldn't even be able to get her shows if she messed with the MoCa for FiOS, for example.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by pault on Friday April 19, 2019 @09:23AM (#19699375)
Maybe not grandma, but Bob the accountant could install pihole or tor. If only a small fraction of non technical people start using privacy focused software, it would be a big win for the open internet.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by vageli on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:24PM (#19712834)
While I agree in principle, unless people are becoming unchained from their ISP-provided router/modems, I just don't see this gaining much traction. I really hope this succeeds (or something like it), I just feel that the current ISP environment is not conducive to such disruption, especially when 98% of users are running vendor-provided modems with the default configuration.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by IgorPartola on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:14AM (#19697054)
When you do opkg install tor, opkg might very well install other services, libraries, executables, config files, caches, etc. If tor is not what you actually wanted or you want to remove it, you now have to worry about how to do that best. How often do you want to go messing with your router to try to straighten out exactly wtf the various pre and post install scripts did? The nice thing about containers is that when you want to remove one you just remove it.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by paavoova on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:55AM (#19697193)
Yes, by design, it's a package manager. Rather than bundle dependencies such as libraries, they're pulled in system-wide and dynamically linked. This preserves both flash and memory space on embedded systems, which with consumer routers are fairly constrained. My router has 16MiB of flash and 128MiB of RAM, and that is more or less typical for consumer non-x86 routers.

Likewise, uninstalling via a package manager handles orphaned dependencies automatically for you.

> How often do you want to go messing with your router

That's the thing when you're running what is essentially Linux (in the case of OpenWRT): it's not a router, it's an OS and you can manage just like you do any other OS. Your description of "apps" as containers seems to abstract away the OS level and leave you with just some frontend (which is probably running Linux/*BSD underneath) and no control.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by IgorPartola on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @03:28PM (#19731998)
> Likewise, uninstalling via a package manager handles orphaned dependencies automatically for you.

Yes, and fairies are real, and so is Santa. I wish things were this way, but the reality is that most package managers aren't 100% perfect when it comes to install/uninstall and cleaning up of stuff. opkg is especially bad at it. If you look at how it actually works, the core files of the package are handled by the package manager, which usually (though not always works). But most packages aren't just binary blobs to be moved around. Take something like mysql-server for example. Not only will it install the MySQL binaries, it will also create /var/lib/mysql for all the data, and a few cache dirs as well. It'll also add files to /etc/, /etc/defaults/ and so on. Oh, and after it is installed, it will start the mysqld process. When you try to uninstall this stuff, but default the /var/lib/mysql directory won't be removed. Who knows, you might want the data that's there. Oh and that config file? That's staying too. So if you uninstall and reinstall mysql-server because something went bad, you'll just get the same config and data. Is that what you really wanted? You can of course do something like `apt autoremove --purge mysql-server` and that'll mostly work, assuming that mysqld isn't frozen, at which point the pre-remove script fails to kill it and you suddenly are left with a system with an inconsistent state. Last I checked, opkg didn't even have a purge option. And it doesn't stop there. The pre/post install/uninstall scripts can do whatever they want, and if they error out, you again are left with a mess you will be cleaning up by hand. I have done this on many distros many times and it is always a mess. apt/dpkg are one of the better systems out there. The rest? They will make you want to nuke whatever device you are working on from orbit.

I am not on the "containers for everything" bandwagon, but the idea that opkg is somehow comparable in this case is laughable.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by doctorpangloss on Thursday April 18, 2019 @07:56PM (#19695850)
Docker for NAS devices is the de facto App Store. The most compelling applications are for media consumption / piracy.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by skunkworker on Thursday April 18, 2019 @09:36PM (#19696347)
I'm using Unraid for my NAS currently. It hosts pihole, a local nginx proxy, and a unifi controller in addition to other containers. I can also throw on some docker containers to build chromium and other large projects in their target environments.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by vijaykodam on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:24PM (#19701283)
Your setup looks interesting. Would be great if you could write a blog about your setup.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by flipper_c on Thursday April 18, 2019 @08:16PM (#19695964)
I’ve been looking into this lately for mine. Definitely need to invest more time. What NAS are you running?
Re:Mozilla WebThings by graton on Thursday April 18, 2019 @08:23PM (#19695996)
I'm not who you asked but Synology is pretty nice. Runs Docker nicely and lots of applications available for it. Recommend an Intel CPU based vs the ARM based Synology NAS systems. I use it to run various software for my home network.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by toomuchtodo on Thursday April 18, 2019 @09:00PM (#19696179)
I second Synology. Runs my ArchiveTeam docker container, any docker container really without issue. Also accepts TimeMachine backups from my Macs and backs everything up to Backblaze B2.
Re:Mozilla WebThings by tomjakubowski on Thursday April 18, 2019 @09:31PM (#19696317)
Why do you recommend Intel over ARM?
Re:Mozilla WebThings by gervase on Thursday April 18, 2019 @10:54PM (#19696729)
I wouldn't say this is a universal "ARM vs Intel" claim, just a specific heuristic for this company's products.

Synology's ARM line is generally underpowered compared to their Intel offerings, in terms of clock speed, memory capacity, and core count. They also tend to gate additional features (e.g. hardware-accelerated encryption) behind their Intel offerings.

edit: We're mostly talking Atoms / Celerons here, so not exactly screaming performance either way.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by kalleboo on Friday April 19, 2019 @03:53AM (#19697811)
Unless something has changed in the past year, Docker and Virtual Machines are only supported on their Intel devices and not the ARM ones.

There are third-party package managers for the ARM devices but there are a lot of broken packages so I wouldn't recommend using it.

Re:Mozilla WebThings by flipper_c on Thursday April 18, 2019 @08:14PM (#19695947)
That was what I found most interesting too. But then I’m a hardware geek!