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Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by wizardforhire on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @02:39AM (#19671601)
Uhhhh this statement in the article about halfway down is incredible!

“You need to be able to tell the difference between one wave front and the next, and if the next wave front is 1.3 mm behind and traveling at the speed of light, then you need to reliably distinguishing between events 4 picoseconds apart (4 trillionths of a second). So, every telescope needs a shiny new atomic clock and a really fast camera. You begin to get a sense of why the data consolidation looks more like a cargo shipment than an email attachment; trillions of snapshots every second of not just the waves you’re looking for, but also the waves that will cancel out once all the data is processed. Add to that the challenge of figuring out (generally after the fact) where every detector is to within a fraction of a millimeter even as their orientation changes and the Earth rotates, and you’ve got a problem.”

Just stupefyingly complex and amazing!

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by RedOrGreen on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:37AM (#19674563)
Calling it a "really fast camera" elides much of the actual difficulty. We're trying to tag individual wavefronts of light at different telescopes, record them, and then play them back at a central "correlator" with the appropriate delays so that the waves come to a focus.

For a wavelength of 1.3 mm, we'd want the time tagging to be better than a quarter of the wavelength at least - say 0.3 mm. The speed of light is 300 mm/ns (a foot per nanosecond is the shorthand beloved of circuit and chip designers). So, for 0.3 mm, we're going to have to get down to a wavefront tagging accuracy of 0.001 ns.

No clock is going to get there, but if we can get ~close enough, we can use a procedure called fringe fitting to determine the clock corrections by looking at the wavefronts. (Does it line up this way? How about this way? How about now? Yes, it's as laborious as it sounds, but computers, eh.)

This is all in the calibration of data, before we do the Fourier inversion to create images - the magic of radio interferometry is that we can record the signal to disk while preserving phase. Optical photons can not be recorded and played back with phase preserved - optical interferometry has to split up the photon streams and send different parts to be correlated against streams from other telescopes, so you run out of signal quickly. Meanwhile, we can record radio waves at the 27 VLA dishes, say, and play them back for correlation on all 27*26/2 = 354 baselines, no problem. That's why radio VLBI is a thing, but not optical VLBI.

Even as a professional radio astronomer, the underlying physics is deep and almost magical.

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by bkloppenborg on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @08:51PM (#19678700)
> That's why radio VLBI is a thing, but not optical VLBI.

Hi, long baseline optical interferometrist here who specializes in modeling and image reconstruction.

To set the record straight, long baseline optical interferometry really is a thing. At present there are two optical interferometers operating in the USA and one under construction: Georgia State University's Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy (CHARA), and the Navy Precision Optical Interferometer (NPOI), and New Mexico Tech's Magdalena Ridge Optical Interferometer (MROI, under construction). Europe operates the Very Large Telescope Interferometer (VLTI) in Chile. Australia has the Sydney University Stellar Interferometer (SUSI). Optical interferometers have been around for a really long time. Michelson famously measured the diameter of Betelgeuse in December 1920. The first image from an optical interferometer was of Capella produced by the University of Cambridge's COAST telescope in September 1995.

The key difference between VLBI and optical interferometry is that we must combine the light from each telescope in real time, rather than recording the RF data to disk and forming the interference patterns later using correlation. Our interference patterns are recorded on high speed cameras, extracted, calibrated, and then stored as OIFITS files. These files are then later reconstructed using a variety of methods, including Markov chain processes and regularized maximum entropy.

Except for the CLEAN deconvolution process, the methods used to reconstruct images from the EHT data are identical to what optical interferometry has been doing for decades (see https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/ab0e85, Section 2.2.2 for references to literature). The maximum entropy process used for optical interferometric image reconstruction was, in turn, developed for MRI image reconstruction.

Don't get me wrong, I am not attempting to trivialize the result of the EHT team. The effort involved is monumental and the result is astonishing. In fact, I suspect my facial expression was very similar to Katie Bouman's now famous photo when I first saw the image. Then my jaw hit the floor when I found that some of my work (Baron, Monnier, Kloppenborg 2010) was cited in their imaging paper! However, my first inspection of the "eht-imaging" and "SMILI" repositories has yet to reveal anything new or novel that is not regularly employed by optical interferometrists.

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by hinkley on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @03:40PM (#19676626)
Shannon says you have to record at twice the frequency of the signal to see the signal. What makes you guys double that again?
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by Balgair on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @04:17PM (#19676927)
Because you'd also like to know the phase of the waves. If you get unlucky and get just DC offset of the waves (think of it as the 0 crossing of a sine wave) then you've no idea what the phase is. The peak could be before the 0 crossing and the minimum could be afterwards, or it could be the opposite (pi offset in phase). Granted, this is unlikely to occur, you're much more likely to not run into these scenarios. Ideally, you want 4 pieces of data per wave, the 0 crossings and the max/min, for each wave. From that you can get the amplitude and the phase for certain (again, luck is involved)
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by apcragg on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @09:26PM (#19678877)
Can you not make a coherent quadrature detector? I was under the impression that those were pretty common in optical communication systems. Edit: nevermind, 230GHz, so millimeter wave but mixers and oscillators exist at that frequency, are the noise figures just too high to use?
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by kjdndisneinj on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @07:37PM (#19678304)
Luck isn't involved as long as you can ensure your sampling noise is uncorrelated with the incoming wave, either by direct insertion of dither or characterization of environmental noise. Regardless, your point still stands, just a fun tidbit.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by acqq on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @01:33PM (#19675571)
Thanks!

> the magic of radio interferometry is that we can record the signal to disk while preserving phase. Optical photons can not be recorded and played back with phase preserved

Why is that for the optical photons, when it’s “deeper” than just a higher frequency as you answered elsewhere?

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ummonk on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @03:16PM (#19676433)
I can’t speak to any physical limitations that this poster seems to be speaking to (I only studied physics theory so I’m not too sharp on the details of lab / experimental devices / apparatuses) but I would guess intuitively that a fundamental limitation is that radio tends to be more coherent, so you aren’t relying on individual photons but rather aggregating a bunch of photons to measure a wave. In contrast, optical light tends to be incoherent (unless from a laser), so you have to measure individual photons and they aren’t really correlated with each other (so interferometry doesn’t work).
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by jcims on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @08:44PM (#19678660)
Can you still do VLBI if you downconvert the signal or do you do direct sampling (or something else lol)
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by 317070 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @03:13AM (#19671719)
Also, you are looking at a piece of the sky the size of 5 atoms at armslength.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by mehrdadn on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @05:53AM (#19672332)
Thanks for this analogy, it's far more enlightening than the human hair version.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by okcando on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @05:47PM (#19677638)
Interesting. I have precisely zero intuition for the scale of five atoms!
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by rangibaby on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @06:01AM (#19672351)
How many football fields is that?
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by tim333 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:18AM (#19674376)
The size of a football 27,000,000 football fields away.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by cjsawyer on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @10:44AM (#19674038)
Let’s just round to 0.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by anticensor on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @10:48AM (#19674080)
Smaller than kickoff dot.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by jkmcf on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:43AM (#19674626)
American or European?
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by benj111 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @03:44AM (#19671841)
Or the thickness of a human hair at 500km (from the article)
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by 317070 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @05:25AM (#19672249)
Yes, but I did not use that one as I don't like that visualization. My reptilian brain made that sound way bigger than it actually is. As the horizon is only 5-10km away, I cannot really estimate a distance of 500km. I can see the problem of measuring 5 atoms height at arms length though, even when I cannot imagine the size of an atom.

Black holes are small things. They're just very heavy.

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ben_w on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @07:14AM (#19672652)
Messier 87* has a Schwarzschild radius of ~17.784 light hours. The scale of the universe is enough that the mother of my ex had a panic attack when watching a YouTube video about things much smaller than that — hypergiant stars.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by perfmode on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @10:08AM (#19673722)
Funny enough: two of my lay friends had panic attacks when i described to them the distance to the nearest black hole.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by irrational on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @09:29AM (#19673366)
What was the cause of the panic attack?
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ben_w on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:17AM (#19674373)
From what I understood, the realisation that the Earth, that everything and everyone she’d ever known, was an invisible speck next to an invisible speck compared to the largest star.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by Izkata on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @01:35PM (#19675593)
Ahh yes, the Total Perspective Vortex.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ikeyany on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:35AM (#19674548)
Some people don't react well to having their ego obliterated.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by dclowd9901 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @10:41AM (#19674006)
Probably the innate fear of infinity
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by NikkiA on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:36AM (#19674553)
The ISS is 'about' 500km away, that makes it fairly easy to visualise for me.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by dragontamer on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @01:52PM (#19675737)
That's a good point. Perhaps we need to just use things that are well understood.

The moon is about 350,000 to 400,000 km away. By my estimate (of other people's estimate), we're looking at a spot in the sky roughly the size of a dime (US 10-cent coin) on the moon.

I think my reptilian brain understands the distance of the moon and the size of a dime.

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ben_w on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#19676175)
Hmm. My inner eye can’t really get a handle on the distance to the moon. I know it’s 33 Earth-diameters away, that it’s 400 times further than my longest cycle ride, but my mind somehow keeps shortening every distance longer than I can go in a day under my own power to similar levels of “quite far”.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by dragontamer on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @02:53PM (#19676251)
You can get a sense of scale from mountain landscapes or city skylines. As you get closer to the city, you get a better sense of scale and size based off of how much the city has grown or shrunk.

The moon is very far away, but it DOES grow and shrink as it comes closer and further away from us. Using the size differential, you can get an innate feel to the size of the moon. Technically speaking, just driving towards (or away from) the Moon will have you traveling closer / further away from it, and give you a sense of scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance_(astronomy)#/me...

The next time you drive to a major city or large, recognizable landscape, keep an eye on how big and small mountains (or buildings) are and how quickly they move parallax to the foreground. It really does give an instinctive sense of scale. Train this instinct well enough, and you can use it on the moon.

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by ben_w on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @06:11PM (#19677817)
The trouble with driving (or trains) is that my unthinking processing treats the speed as constant and shrinks the distances. Even cycling 1080 km along the Rhine, from the North Sea to the Swiss not-quite-Alps had that foreshortening, though to a lower degree.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by Filligree on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @07:10AM (#19672633)
Black holes are normally small things. The furthest one out of these is larger than our solar system, however.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @07:16AM (#19672662)
Or an orange on the moon (from a youtube video IIRC?)
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by bacon_waffle on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @04:42AM (#19672096)
The specific mention of the box of hard drives in the press release, was because there are no flights in/out of South Pole (where the 10m South Pole Telescope is) for ~9 months in winter, and the Internet access there is very expensive and not very high bandwidth.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by jcims on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @08:10AM (#19672927)
This is why you aren't likely to be doing VLBI in the visible light spectrum any time soon. Your wavelength is three orders of magnitude smaller, so the equipment you use to capture phase information has to be three orders of magnitude faster and the correlation is likely to require at at least three orders of magnitude more capacity.
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by RedOrGreen on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @11:39AM (#19674587)
Yes, we're not going to do optical VLBI soon, but the reason is deeper... I just wrote out a long comment [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19674563

Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by afturner on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @10:13AM (#19673774)
Is there any information on the tech behind this? As a software developer this is horrifying and fascinating
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by hinkley on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @03:37PM (#19676608)
... and the tectonic plates move, and that fucking delivery truck for the people down the road keeps going past...
Re:Why was it so hard to take a picture of a black hole? by leowoo91 on Tuesday April 16, 2019 @06:52AM (#19672544)
Any similarities with an electron microscope?