To be fair, it's not 1 million of anyone entering the country illegally every year.

70k arrested for illegal border crossing in march only. I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

well you can't assume who is downvoting

but the mods will tell you that it is "noisy" at the beginning and that you can't glean anything from it

they'll also tell you that you can't talk about voting (an interpretation of their site guidelines, when convenient), so you can't complain about it or even talk about it as that will also attract downvotes

and they'll also simultaneously believe that it is accurate for downvoted people to be rate-limited for hours on end, preventing them from even responding to a thread that could change how people view their original downvoted message, until any message that doesn't currently have consensus is censored completely and the "noise maker" is shadowbanned

there aren't that many mods here. would be nice if this was a little more holistic

except there's no need to make shit up, the CBP conveniently also publishes statistics regarding the total number of apprehensions every year, broken down by month. unlike you, who presumably got the information from Trump on Twitter, I will post my source: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/201...

the total number of apprehensions every year for the past 12 fiscal years has been less than 1 million per year. and no, you cannot assume that the number of people of people that didn't get apprehended is some arbitrarily selected multiple of that number, because one, reputable sources estimate that the number of actual individuals entering the country is on the same order of magnitude as the number of apprehensions (because many people are apprehended more than once), and two, because that's completely moronic.

Sigh. So where's your source that apprehensions ~= illegal entries? Intuitively it makes sense to me that more people get in than are caught, but I don't have data. Nor do I see how you can accurately count the number of people you didn't catch...

https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06770.pdf via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_entry#United_States

that's exactly what I said. Approx 70k per month comes out to approx 840k per year. THATS ONLY THE ONES WHO GOT ARRESTED. You can assume less than half got away without being arrested and you get a number that passes a million.

In no month has 70k been apprehended. The maximum was 66450 (so you are taking the max, rounding it up an projecting using that..)

Also the person you are replying to pointed out that this included people apprehended more than once.

> I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

With a lack of data it's not ok to just make numbers up.

First of all, could you please directly link to the source.

Second even if this number is accurate, it is misleading and I will attempt to put it in perspective.

People are coming to us border to claim asylum. They are unable to do that because border agents are understaffed (it's been like that since 2015 during Obama administration) and can only accept so many applications.

In the meantime they have to live in appalling conditions waiting for months to just apply for asylum, in this situation some people choose to cross 'illegally'. Source: https://www.gimletmedia.com/the-cut-on-tuesdays/the-women-of...

here you go https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

That says "In FY18, a total of 396,579 individuals were apprehended between ports of entry on our Southwest Border."

It's on course to be higher this year, but well under 1 million.

What percentage of attempted crossings result in an apprehension? My impression of ICE/border patrol is that they're an ineffectual agency[s] who're wasting my tax dollars. Basically a glorified jobs program for mouth breathers who can't hack it as real cops, not unlike the TSA. Is that not the case? Are they actually good at their job?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2017/11/09/tsa...

just because the conditions are appalling doesn't make doing illegal things okay. you don't see me break into my rich neighbors property and move into his garden cottage just because my house is in appalling condition.

if they 'stole a loaf' and left the house it would be ok but they are moving in to the kitchen to have constant access to the loafs, thats what makes it a problem. once they make it across the border, they still have to maintain decades of illegal lifestyle. the legal framework doesnt let them achieve a normal life where their hard work will afford them a decent life. the struggles and difficulties continue for them and keep pushing them into illegalities. just letting them in illegally doesnt solve a problem. it starts a long chain of other problems that sometimes ends up with them being deported 20 years later.

Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?

It might be illegal, but it is morally right.

To be fair, it was clear to me that was hyperbole and it got the point across, which is the purpose of language.

The only known terrorists to be apprehended coming overland into America came from the North.

At legal crossings, no different than flying into the US. Which, for that matter, is how the vast majority of known terrorists have gotten into the United States -- 100% of the 9/11 terrorists flew into the US.

When there is some sort of equivalency drawn between the Southern and Northern border it is usually founded on absolute nonsense. The Northern border likely sees more smuggling of both people and contraband (e.g. guns) North than the reverse.

But stopping terrorism is not the only purpose of ICE.

Enumerate those other purposes?

Is one of them to privilege a white majority?

Perhaps there's a reason so many call to abolish the institution.

It's in the damn name. Immigration enforcement. We have a legal immigration process in this country, many try to come here illegally. Without a border, you have no country.

Whatever the policy on the books is, we have a pretty clearly different actual policy resulting from the way ICE chooses to enforce the law: brown people who want to live here are treated strictly and with hostility and white people who want to live here are treated on the whole with more leniency.

You still have a border, just like the 50 US states have internal borders with each other. Why haven't they ceased to exist as discrete entities?

Permeable borders abound in nature. Trying to obstruct the natural behavior of migration is as foolish as trying to halt the tides and arguably causes worse economic distortions than it solves.

The Netherlands is better off for having dikes.

Because we're the United States. We're not the United Countries.

The "natural flow of migration"?

Fewer people come here illegally than come here legally and stay illegally.

Most of your "illegal immigrants" are legitimate visitors who overstay their visa.

The legal immigration process has been slowed to a crawl by the current administration[1]. Any claims that they simply wish for people to follow the legal process are entirely misleading, to the point of being reality-muddling propaganda. The administration is making the legal process harder, impossible in some cases[2], and is advocating for the shutdown of many legal avenues, even those that the president's family themselves have used to attain status here[3].

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19547565

2. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/trumps-...

3. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/09/nyregion/melania-trumps-p...

Counting by those apprehended is a pretty poor metric. Correlation, blah, blah, blah