Re:Idiomatic Monads in Rust
by ainar-g on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:32PM
(#19576234)
One question I almost never see addressed with monads is the question of the
stack. The stack is not endless, and may actually be quite small on some
devices. How is that fact reconciled with the fact that do-notation is
essentially
Depending on the data being transferred, that looks like a lot of stack to me.
[ Parent
| on HN ]
Your concern isn't completely unwarranted but in practice things generally turn out fine. Each time you hit a >>=, you are conceptually yielding control to the monadic datatype. You pass it a function, which captures some closure, which your compiler presumably optimizes to save off only the data that you may need if your function gets invoked (though over-capturing definitely can happen). Really it's a reference to the closure and maybe the function that end up sitting on the stack. The monadic datatype itself is responsible for making sure you don't create too many frames. There are different approaches they can take to accomplish this, including everything from trampolining to iterating with tail calls to imperative loops. It does occasionally happen that some datatype simply shirks its responsibility to be stack-safe. Anyway, overall, there are solutions to avoid blowing up the stack, and they generally get implemented, but occasionally it does become an issue.
Re:Idiomatic Monads in Rust
by _hardwaregeek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:35PM
(#19576269)
Couldn't you apply standard tail call optimization and turn it into a trampoline?
That is assuming that your compiler knows about such optimisations and can
apply them in non-recursive situations. As far as I know, Go doesn't apply
tail-call optimisation. Haskell probably does. Not sure about Rust.
Either way, depending on the compiler making one particular optimisation just so that your code works seems rather fragile to me.
There are languages where TCO is defined as part of the language spec, specifically to give programmers permission to write this sort of code. Some Lisps (Scheme, I think) and Lua work this way. TCO is a relatively well-understood optimization that isn't prone to being brittle the way e.g. auto-parallelizers or auto-vectorizers can be. So it's less fragile than you'd think.
TCO is a lot easier to do in a garbage-collected language. In particular, with Rust, having any live stack value that conforms to Drop will break the ability to do tail-calls.
You could have a trait similar to Copy that forces Drop to be a no-op, and require live values that don't conform to it to be moved into any `become`.
Or just skip the trait and require there to be nothing live on the stack that conforms to Drop after a `become`.
In fact, the main reason to have a keyword like `become` is to signal to the compiler to do this kind of analysis, because it's so easy to accidentally break the ability to do TCO when you can't lean on a GC to clean things up later.
Didn't know about Lua[1], thanks! Although I think I would prefer an explicit
syntax, like Tcl's “tailcall”[2], Perl's “goto &sub”[3], or “become”[4], with
the compiler checking that this is actually a tail-call.
[1]: https://www.lua.org/pil/6.3.html
[2]: https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/tailcall
[3]: https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/goto.html
[4]: Which was used in a C-family language I can't remember.
Re:Idiomatic Monads in Rust
by steveklabnik on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:42PM
(#19576897)
("become" is reserved in Rust for this exact possible future, maybe that's what you're thinking of.)
Re:Idiomatic Monads in Rust
by steveklabnik on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:08PM
(#19576564)
Rust does not currently guarantee TCO, though llvm may choose to do it if it wishes.