News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by kwindla on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:05PM (#19556337)
Let's add the US Congress and the EU to the long list of parties to blame for the DRM situation. "Reverse engineering" software for the purposes of "circumventing" copyright is illegal.

"Circumventing" is much more broadly defined than it should be.

It's not just illegal to redistribute copyrighted material. That's the point of copyright and has been the case for a long time. It's also illegal to watch/consume content yourself in any way that the copyright-holder didn't explicitly enable, even if you have a general right to watch/consume that content. You're not allowed to create a browser that can watch DRM-protected Netflix content. And if someone does create such a browser, it's illegal for you to use it, even if you pay for a Netflix subscription.

That's pretty new (circa 1996 or so).

In 2002 I went to see Lawrence Lessig argue the Supreme Court challenge of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which introduced these anti-circumvention concepts. Here are my notes: https://allafrica.com/staff/kwindla/eldred.txt

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by freedomben on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:33PM (#19556604)
Completely agree. Those government believe that protecting intellectual property is necessary to further human and societal progress. I won't take a position on whether I agree with that or not.

However, based on that premise they've instituted rules to "protect" intellectual property, but unfortunately they're so weighted toward the "owner" of the IP that they do (IMHO serious) harm to regular users and consumers. It seems to me that regardless of which political side you fall under, we should agree that governments exist to protect the rights and interests of everyone, not just a select few.

Something is really wrong here, and getting mad at Google or Widevine or some other company is a red herring. The real problem is what we've allowed our government(s) to do. We need to fight back there. Once the government isn't propping up the companies anymore, their abuse will disappear.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by r3bl on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:01PM (#19557482)
> ...but unfortunately they're so weighted toward the "owner" of the IP that they do (IMHO serious) harm to regular users and consumers.

To the established owners of IP. If you're not an established creator, you're going to be on the side that gets hurt by the IP. Some IP claims are gonna hit you sooner or later, and even if they're complete bullshit, you won't be able to do anything about them.

Established owners can generate enough of a fuss that they could cause an outrage big enough for some actual human to look into your issues, but if you're not big enough for that... tough luck. Try again from scratch once Google cuts you out. This happens regularly across their products, be it Google Play, YouTube, or Chrome's extensions store.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by thatoneuser on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:23PM (#19560494)
Absolutely. I have work floating around out there and I know it's being used without permission. Not that I'd sue someone if I could, but I can't while corporations can. And while for me I could maybe make a living off my work if it were being paid for rather than stolen, for the corporation it's just more profit.

Systems fucked. The little guy should have the advantage, not the already rich one.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dTal on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:49PM (#19557910)
s/established/rich
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dd36 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:49PM (#19557907)
The government is propping up the companies because that's what the companies made happen. Your framing suggests that government did this on its own. It did not. The outsized ability of companies to influence the government is the core problem that must first be solved. It is the root of most people's gripes with the government.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by chongli on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:46PM (#19560360)
The outsized ability of companies to influence the government is the core problem that must first be solved.

Replace companies with nobility or aristocracy and you're talking about a problem as old as civilization itself. The fact is, small groups with control over a lot of resource (elites) will always work to consolidate and secure their power. Barring some radical, unforeseen technology, the masses of people will always have a more difficult time coordinating their actions to prevent this. This is the class struggle narrative of history.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dd36 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:05AM (#19560622)
I don’t disagree. We need to get money out of politics. It’s been done before. It can be done again.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by chadlavi on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @07:40AM (#19562522)
> It's been done before.

When was that?

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dd36 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:35PM (#19567048)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_reform_in_the...

Some of it has been overturned recently but limits have existed for periods of time.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by chongli on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:51AM (#19569424)
I don't want to downplay the importance of campaign finance reform but that's just a drop in the bucket. Look at all the wealthy donors that endow the Ivy League. Look at all the charity speaking engagements, yacht clubs, Davos junkets, private island parties.

Meanwhile, mainstream television is waning in influence for political advertising. Now it's all about Facebook. Think of the micro-targeting turnout power they have. It's obscene!

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by goldenkey on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:25PM (#19558731)
The introduction to State and Power by V. I. Lenin says exactly this - the state will always become a proxy for the rich owners of production (GDP generation.) And not in a nefarious way but in an inevitable "forces" way. Democracy is the best government for large/rich entities in a capitalistic environment. It presents the appearance of fairness and legitimacy, yet delegates most of its power and direction to the heads of production via influence, lobbyists, etc.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by alanlamm on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:01PM (#19568983)
why was this flagged? I'm no fan of communism, but it appears to be a valid response to the parent.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by goldenkey on Thursday April 04, 2019 @07:13PM (#19578048)
I have no idea - I'm not usually one to espouse political ideas unless wholly relevant to a topic at hand. It seems that a band of HN users are politically adverse - which is sad, since capital rules our lives and society, and merely ignoring its flaws does nothing to abate them.
[dead]
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by goldenkey on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:04PM (#19559718)
I didn't write anything in support of communism, just that the critiques of capitalism are still valid and need to be addressed.

I have no interest in a fallacious debate.

[dead]
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by goldenkey on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:58PM (#19558992)
I'm just paraphrasing Lenin. Even if you are emotionally repelled by the horrors committed in the name of communism, The Communist Manifesto and State and Power are worth a read. Lenin was the best writer of the bunch, direct and explanatory. Marx is wordy and almost writes in an obfuscated fashion.

The problems with democracy that were described _still_ exist today. One can dislike communism and still acknowledge the criticisms of capitalism as valid and in need of address.

Communism was never actually executed true to the image. The state of the proleteriat was supposed to wither away - instead it became a dictatorship with secret police.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by krzyk on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:29PM (#19556559)
The above is most probably for US based clients. E.g. in Poland it is perfectly legal to watch copyrighted material as long as you don't redistribute it.

It is also legal to do a reverse engineering of software to allow it to run on your system, software, hardware (so I think a browser also applies).

(I'm not a lawyer, just reading some of the more technical law articles)

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by the8472 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:49PM (#19557343)
Poland is an EU member, so your government must have some implementation of the EU Copyright directive, which includes somewhat similar anti-circumvention clauses as the DMCA[0].

There are lots of differences in the details, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that it's completely legal without actually checking the corresponding laws.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi...

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by jp555 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:19PM (#19558177)
I read during earlier attempts to pass the Copyright directive that it is not implementable in Poland because it would be unconstitutional. I understood that was why Poland was voting against it, but that was in the summer, and I’m not sure if the version that passed is different.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by janoc on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:32PM (#19557773)
You need to realize that the EU "directives" are not actually the law (aka the thing that will get you prosecuted).

The directives are "transposed" into national law, country by country - and each country can (and does) add a local "flavor" to it. So if the Poles have watered down the anti-circumvention clause (it is very vague in the directive, giving a ton of maneuvering space to the national parliaments), the situation he is describing is very possible. On the opposite side of the spectrum is traditionally France, with its (fortunately incredibly ineffective) three strike system. Very different approaches to things even though both countries are implementing the same copyright directive.

The other type of texts coming from Brussels are "regulations" - those go into effect immediately, without having to be rewritten into national laws. GDPR is an example of such regulation.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by M2Ys4U on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @08:15AM (#19562691)
You're absolutely correct. However,in the event that directives are not transposed (or not transposed correctly) courts can find that the directive is (vertically) directly effective.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by the8472 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:13PM (#19558114)
I am aware, that's why I wrote "some implementation of", which needs to be checked. I am skeptical about the blanket statement made, it's usually more nuanced.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by lucb1e on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:53PM (#19557398)
> in Poland it is perfectly legal to watch copyrighted material as long as you don't redistribute it.

Be careful with that one. The Netherlands had that too until some European court decided that our laws were foolish and went "that's all wrong, it's obviously illegal" after which there was case law about it being illegal and now it's illegal. The ministry immediately went "oh, well, we s'ppose it's illegal then from roundabout last week!"

In case you were wondering who's behind this expensive lawsuit that lasted from 2008 to 2014: we had "home copy tax" (thuiskopieheffing), so you pay a few bucks extra for storage devices (hard drives, usb sticks, smartphones) and that was redistributed to rights holders as compensation for "home copies" (copies for personal use in your household, backups, that sort of thing). Shops did not like that they had to pay extra taxes that they did not have to pay in other countries, so they went to court and got us where we are now.

Dutch news about it: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/95332/nederland-mag-illegaal-dow...

> Nederland stelt dat het downloaden van dergelijk materiaal hetzelfde is als het kopiëren van een cd of dvd, maar daar gaat het Europese Hof niet in mee. Volgens het Hof kan een wet die 'geen enkel onderscheid maakt tussen kopieën uit geoorloofde bronnen en kopieën uit vervalste bronnen' niet worden gedoogd, omdat dergelijke wetgeving auteursrechtinbreuk kan bevorderen.

Translated:

~ The Netherlands claims that downloading of such material is the same as copying a cd or dvd, but the EU court does not agree. According to the EU court, a law that makes 'no distinction can be made between copied from allowed sources and from forged sources' can be allowed, because such laws promote copyright infringement.

Dutch news about the government's response: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/95335/kabinet-nederland-heeft-pe...

> Het is in Nederland per direct verboden om auteursrechtelijk beschermd materiaal te downloaden uit illegale bron, bijvoorbeeld via torrentsites en nieuwsgroepen. Dat stelt het kabinet in een reactie op een uitspraak van het EU-hof.

Translated

~ It is in the Netherlands henceforth prohibited to download copyrighted material from an illegal source, for example through torrent sites and newsgroups. This is the ministry's response to the ruling of the EU court.

So we didn't need any law change, parliamentary debate, nothing. It was in effect right away.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by Faark on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:53PM (#19557941)
> so you pay a few bucks extra for storage devices (hard drives, usb sticks, smartphones) and that was redistributed to rights holders as compensation for "home copies" (copies for personal use in your household, backups, that sort of thing)

We have kind of the same in Germany, and our overview on Wikipedia[1] looks even more complicated and expensive than yours[1]. You're still not allowed to circumvent effective copyright protections to make your private copy. But I'd be surprised if e.g. music only available with DRM would be excluded from earning a share of that fee.

Interestingly, before the recent EU copyright reform, this fee benefited only authors directly, instead of the rights holder.

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauschalabgabe [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuiskopieheffing

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by kruczek on Friday April 05, 2019 @03:40AM (#19580536)
I also read many articles claiming that it is legal to watch copyrighted material, as long as it is not redistributed. However I'm not sure that's actually true.

As per https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Polish_Copyright_Law

Article 23, paragraph 1:

> It shall be permitted to use free of charge the work, which has been already disseminated for purposes of private use without the permission of the author.

Article 6, point 3:

> the disseminated work shall mean a work which, with a permission of its author, has been made available to the public by any means whatsoever

So, it is legal to access the work without permission, if author gave prior permission to make it available to the public. However I'm not sure if selling a book in a store or showing a movie in a cinema would automatically mean that such work can be downloaded freely from the Internet - technically the work is available to the public, but I'm sure the author did not give permission for the work to be available on the Internet.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by marcus_holmes on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:26PM (#19559177)
or Cambodia, which has some interesting laws on copyright that effectively mean foreign copyrights are not enforceable there.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by Mindwipe on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:57PM (#19557444)
> (I'm not a lawyer, just reading some of the more technical law articles)

I'd advise not giving out bad advice then stating absolutes about the legal situation that are wrong.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by chupasaurus on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:27PM (#19559537)
Fun fact: due to the situation of CS in late USSR, Russia still has a law preserving the right to reverse engineer any software over any agreement or license.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by deogeo on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:22PM (#19559501)
It's thanks to the obscene profits of the entertainment industry that they're able to lobby to rob us of our rights.

Try not to help them by paying for entertainment.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by realusername on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:56PM (#19560401)
> Let's add the US Congress and the EU to the long list of parties to blame for the DRM situation. "Reverse engineering" software for the purposes of "circumventing" copyright is illegal.

That does depend on the countries, at least on my case in France there's an accessibility exception which makes it okay in his case to break the DRM legally because he does not have any other choice.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by djsumdog on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:14PM (#19558127)
It's a dangerous precedent. Think about adblock. You're just choosing to render the data websites give to you differently.

What if you design a web browser that just ignores most blobs of CSS/Javascript and renders content in a very different way. Are you now breaking copyright? Because you're rendering the data differently than the W3C standard or blocking certain elements?

I realize this is specifically about DRM content, but I feel like it won't be a stretch to try to apply these laws to common content.

Lets all start running Gopher servers again... Fuck the modern web.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by tux1968 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:01PM (#19558536)
Pretty soon web traffic will be decrypted and rendered via site specific web assembly blobs that will do everything in their power to defeat custom rendering. The modern web has just begun, and the powers that be are still grappling with its control. So we're still living in a comparative wild-west, but you can see the writing on the wall in every direction you look online right now.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by samstave on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:12PM (#19558638)
We ahould be doing exactly this in opposite:

Anti ad exit node proxies.

Basically an ecryoted proxy connection to a powerful ad stripping instance that will randomize and pipe all that shit to dev null, and reply to trackers with addesses of their competing ad systems.

So that every ad for “microsoft” appears as though its being used by apple users...

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by lbotos on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:50PM (#19559667)
Ah yes, but then who controls those servers? A lot of people think that US Government agents own enough TOR nodes to de-anonymize.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by userbinator on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:24PM (#19559806)
To be fair, in my experience there seem to be a lot more people frustrated with ads than scared of the government.

Someone who wants privacy/anonymity is likely to not want ads, but I think those who don't want ads is actually a larger group.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by metildaa on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:54PM (#19560578)
Why would a browser or extension client side not be better? Adding an intermediary would add latency needlessly...
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by userbinator on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @07:28AM (#19562476)
It's not always possible to even modify the client, think of the embedded browsers in "smart" devices as well as the increasingly-locked-down mobile platforms. But as long as installing your own certificates still works, you can continue to MITM your traffic and modify it before it gets to the client(s).
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by samstave on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:29AM (#19561971)
Because blocking at the cloent edge node already has had the bandwidth consumed from the carriers end provided, no?
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by chongli on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:19AM (#19564051)
This is why we need to build a JavaScript-free web. Just plain old HTML and CSS. With no cookies either. And a search engine that only indexes pages that conform to these rules.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by samstave on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:07PM (#19558587)
This is what pisses me off aboit ads and data consumption pay rates: if i am paying for “1GB” of data, then i should have full control over how that data gets consumed by the content i am accessing over that paid pipe. Period.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by _corym on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:23PM (#19558724)
That's why I use Brave Browser, it blocks everything by default. Doesn't even download them.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by ntp85 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:26AM (#19561466)
Doesn't uBlock Origin in Firefox do the same by intercepting network requests? I really don't know...
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by Aengeuad on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @08:36AM (#19562787)
uBlock Origin supports[0] both network filtering where requests to an ad cdn or domain are blocked before the network connection is ever made, and it also supports cosmetic filtering where elements can be hidden after the fact - but this is mostly for blocking intrusive popups or dialogue boxes and the like rather than for blocking ads. The vast majority of filter lists that come with uBlock Origin are network filters where ad domains are blocked outright. As uBlock Origin uses the Adblock Plus filter syntax it's not difficult to use ABP filters or to port hostfile filters over.

[0] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Does-uBlock-block-ads...

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by p2t2p on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:35PM (#19559591)
I have the same thing in my Safari with 1Blocker. Also built-in on system level and doesn't even download blocked stuff.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by megablast on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:16PM (#19566908)
No, you don't suddenly own that film you are streaming. What a ridiculous idea.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by marcus_holmes on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:15PM (#19559101)
but you do have full control... if you don't want to see ads, don't visit sites that use ads to support their business model.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dspillett on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:12PM (#19559746)
I'll bite. How do you propose I know which sites not to visit without visiting them?
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by marcus_holmes on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @09:25PM (#19560065)
good question. I don't have an answer.

though at this point it is kinda predictable - all news sites, except the ones with paywalls (and if you haven't bought the subscription, then its pointless visiting them). All information sources, except a few notable exceptions (usually aggregators like HN/Reddit, but also Medium).

Everything else divides into SaaS products, personal blogs and random shit. Random shit is usually ad-supported, the rest are usually fine.

it's all sort of moot anyway - the ads model is crap and getting worse, and businesses are going to have to move to something else soon. I don't think we'll have this problem long.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:02AM (#19561353)
How do you know a site will have content you want? Surely there's room for a bit of uncertainty.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by dspillett on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @07:30AM (#19562489)
> How do you know a site will have content you want?

I'm often told in advance, by virtue of it coming up in a search result, promoted link, friends post, etc.

"This site contains adverts that perform obtrusive tracking" is seldom mentioned before or during the visit, the only way to know is by trying to block all such things and seeing the site fail if it tries to block the blocking.

Sometimes the advance information of content relevance is deceptive of course, and this often coincides with darkest patterns in the advertising/tracking.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by cb504 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @06:00AM (#19562104)
when a site identifies my ad blocker and specifically asks that i disable it, then i have to decide either to momentarily disable my ad blocker and view the content, or leave the site. the Big Media people don't want to be so upfront about their restrictions. "if they don't know about the restrictions, they won't get angry."
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by HenryBemis on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:14PM (#19559463)
It is not the ads I/we dislike. It is the tracking. If we go to <insert name of IT news website> and we would see a laptop as on a laptop related article, that would be ok. But if we then to to Winter-ski.xyz and still see the same laptop as, then we no like!
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by martimarkov on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:09PM (#19559736)
You don't know if the website has ads in the first place so your argument is invalid.
Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by samstave on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:01PM (#19559704)
You make me want to reach through my screen...

Ajit pai.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by masukomi on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:22PM (#19558194)
> What if you design a web browser that just ignores most blobs of CSS/Javascript and renders content in a very different way.

that describes every command line / terminal web browser.

Re:I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me by yayana on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:15PM (#19558656)
Ignoring what you don't understand is arguably valid, dark mode would be illegal..