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Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by philliphaydon on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:22PM (#19508204)
So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job.

I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which way you spin it.

My 2cents.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by ENGNR on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:25PM (#19508604)
'developer discusses with his boss' => that's 5 years prison right there, not joking

It's 5 for not doing it and 5 for telling anyone, 10 for both

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by maldeh on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:40PM (#19509022)
Assuming it could be proven, surely?

And there have to be limitations as to how far an individual could go as to subterfuge, so if your company enforces a 2-person code review and there aren't other authorized Australian nationals at hand, you could point at process preventing you from doing so without others' knowledge (how naive this defense is, I have no idea)

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:03AM (#19509136)
You opt into participating that process by accepting the job, though. So from Australia's perspective, the way to comply with their law is to not take such jobs, and to leave if the process changes prevent you from complying.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by viraptor on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:55AM (#19509635)
I think you're inventing scenarios here that are too unlikely even for a pretty corrupt country. There probably exist laws in a number of countries which would technically jail you for taking some not-explicitly-illegal job. But this is absurd. Unless you're an actual lawyer giving opinion here?
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Nasrudith on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:08AM (#19511355)
I think if you trust people to not be corrupt you will wind up with corruption. A bad law is one that requires the empowered to not abuse it. A good law can't be abused. Harsh and cynical but true - reducto ad absurdum giving someone the legal power to murder anyone and relying on it to "not be abused" is a law literally bad enough to be causus beli for a civil war.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bryanrasmussen on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:23AM (#19509733)
Unless you're an Australian lawyer I'm going to think this interpretation is a little far out by most Western legal traditions.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:03AM (#19509914)
Can you explain why? It seems like a straightforward application of the law making some activity illegal, when its jurisdiction is explicitly defined as extending beyond the nation's borders. If you forget the border for a moment and just consider it all a single jurisdiction, aren't you basically saying that somebody can break the law and claim immunity from prosecution on the basis that their job requirements demanded that law to be broken?
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bryanrasmussen on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:37AM (#19510108)
What I expect would happen is as follows:

1. you take job at place with code review.

2. Australian police say place a backdoor.

3. You say we have code review the backdoor will be caught.

Now at this point the following might happen.

4a. make sure your code is reviewed by X. 4b. ok I guess it won't work. 4c. here is the code to put in, it has a very hard to catch bug that we can exploit.

in no way would I expect them to say 4d. well we're going to take you to court because you took a job that makes entering backdoors difficult.

on edit: improved formatting on 2nd edit: I removed the leading No but, because I can't remember why I started off with that.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by _Nat_ on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:45AM (#19520486)
Is there a protection that prevents the government from requiring an employee take an action that may be discovered?

Or even a reason? I mean, unless the backdoor has a hard-coded URL like `www.ThisIsAGovernmentBackdoor.gov.au`, then a backdoor wouldn't seem to automatically implicate the government. Then an employer might well assume that the employee is just doing their own hacking. And presumably the employee can't say otherwise, right?

Or does the law say that employees can refuse if they fear discovery? And if so, couldn't employees always just refuse on that basis?

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bryanrasmussen on Friday March 29, 2019 @07:54AM (#19520799)
I'm not saying the employees can refuse, I'm saying the employees can say I will be discovered because of this reason. I naively suppose the police are like me in that they do things with a purpose in mind, and if they cannot achieve their purpose by an action they refrain from it as a waste of energy.

If their purpose is to hack company X, are informed that the way they intend to do it will be discovered and expose the tool they were going to use, then I expect they would refrain from doing that and try to find some other way. If they do not refrain then their purpose must not be to hack company X but really just to expose the tool for some reason.

However if they just say I will likely be discovered because of this reason, the police will probably just say "that's a risk we're willing to take!" and go for it.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bryanrasmussen on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:01AM (#19510227)
so it's not that the job requirements demand that law be broken but rather the job requirements are such that the actions being demanded by the law will be ineffective or even worse, be caught out leading to termination of the only Australian 'asset' the government has in the team.

I suppose Australia can attempt to make a law saying any company based in Australia or selling products in Australia or with an internet presence available inside the country of Australia must stop using code review in case you ever hire an Australian citizen we want to put backdoors in your code.

Just imagining it is giving me quite the entertainment value.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by adrianN on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:20AM (#19510305)
The obfuscated C coding contest shows that you probably won't catch backdoors with code reviews
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mcv on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:40AM (#19510380)
Obfuscated code shouldn't pass code review.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by GorgeRonde on Thursday March 28, 2019 @05:03AM (#19510479)
Maybe the poster above was referring to the Underhanded C Contest

> The Underhanded C Contest is an annual contest to write innocent-looking C code implementing malicious behavior. In this contest you must write C code that is as readable, clear, innocent and straightforward as possible, and yet it must fail to perform at its apparent function. To be more specific, it should perform some specific underhanded task that will not be detected by examining the source code.

Source: http://www.underhanded-c.org/_page_id_2.html

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Klathmon on Thursday March 28, 2019 @09:33AM (#19512006)
I highly encourage everyone to go look at the hall of fame, it was extremely eye opening when I first did!

Even knowing there is an exploit in the code, I probably would never be able to find most of them. My favorite is 2008's winner who's goal is to write a redaction program to redact text. It doesn't use any buffer/array hacks, the code is very straightforward and simple and small, and it would work in languages other than C. It's a terrifying example of how easy it is to write malicious code that would pass multiple code reviews but still has a backdoor!

http://www.underhanded-c.org/_page_id_17.html

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by LifeLiverTransp on Saturday March 30, 2019 @07:35AM (#19528915)
I bet Zero day backdoors are the retirement plan of half the security relevant coders here.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mises on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:26AM (#19511468)
> We elect the government to serve the people

Quit making me laugh, buddy. Unfortunately, I think we all know that once they get their office, they do very little to serve the people. Not sure about the case with Australia, but you can't sue the American government unless it lets you. Otherwise, it just claims sovereign immunity. Wrong as that is, it's a very good defense as it keeps them out of court. This might lead the employee to sue the employer ("I was complying with a lawful government order; you can't fire me for that!"), making Australians even more of a liability.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by philpem on Thursday March 28, 2019 @09:12AM (#19511811)
That could lead to some interesting court cases.

Employee gets fired for introducing a backdoor, but "may or may not have been" subject to one of these assistance notes (the Government won't comment either way, the employee insists they had a Technical Assistance Note). Employee sues the employer for wrongful dismissal because of the alleged unprovable TAN.

I wonder which way that court case would go... sounds like a recipe for deadlock.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by JoshTriplett on Thursday March 28, 2019 @10:28AM (#19512505)
Even better: employee gets criminally prosecuted in a (slightly) more sensible jurisdiction for having intentionally introduced the backdoor.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mises on Thursday March 28, 2019 @09:46AM (#19512117)
Another possible concern is that the employee sues for wrongful termination, alleging they were "just following the law" (which they would have been). The employee shouldn't lose his job for following the law, the company shouldn't have such problems for trying to protect its users, and this whole mess was caused by government intervention.

But yes, it will be interesting to see how the courts rule. Not familiar with Australian law, so if anybody has thoughts about this, please feel free to enlighten me.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by AdmiralAsshat on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:26AM (#19511479)
Considering the number of times I've seen a developer quickly patch something and deploy their private build to the customer (not maliciously, but because the customer is screaming and needs it right now and wouldn't wait for normal QA process), I don't think it would be terribly difficult for the compromised developer to create a malicious binary outside of the committed codebase.