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Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by jaza on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:38PM (#19506907)
Australians have very few constitutionally guaranteed rights (compared to countries such as the US). The Constitution only gives us the right to vote, the right to a trial by jury, and freedom of religion (and a few others). But many more rights, including extensive privacy rights, exist in statute law and elsewhere.

The main argument against adding more rights to the Constitution, is: "we don't want to end up with obsolete rights that do more harm than good, and that are virtually impossible to get rid of, like the US with its right to bear arms".

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by tracker1 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:53PM (#19507049)
The U.S. actually goes a step further... the only rights the constitution actually spells out are the rights of government. Most encroachments have been under the guise of "interstate commerce" or "taxation" in general...

> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

As to the bill of rights, so long as the police are armed and can act with impunity... imho, the populace should be able to be armed. I don't personally own a firearm... I also don't spew racist rhetoric. I am a strong believer in all civil rights.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Sabinus on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:11PM (#19507206)
Maybe if the police in America wasn't armed to the teeth and scared of being blown away by armed populace they wouldn't act like they do. For a country who keeps guns to hold governments accountable, your government is just a unaccountable as everyone else; if not more so.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by tracker1 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:22PM (#19507762)
The police weren't armed like today back in the 1950's, and guess what, individuals had MORE guns as a general population. The militarization of the police, less training, less acting as part of the communities they serve, etc. It's about conflict of personality and very little to do with real danger.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by 12298765 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:45PM (#19507494)
We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy, and our goal is longevity of a sustainable relationship between the people and their government.

We have some issues in our country right now, but I have a good feeling we'll get them worked out in the next few years.

Many of our laws and rights are in place not for short term feelings about safety between people and police, but for long term safety of the people from a tyrannical government. And that tyrannical government might take hundreds of years to begin to form in a democracy... But the bill of rights and ability of the people to feel secure without their government's support, keeps the government from getting too power-hungry or separating too far from the will of the people.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:51PM (#19507545)
> We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy

No, we haven't. In fact, we copied it largely from the UK. (We didn't like the fact that as a colony we didn't get representation in the national legislature or the full range of rights citizens in the UK itself had, but, hey, the US does the same thing. Initially, and still partially, even to it's capital district.

We've got the oldest surviving written Constitution, sure, but that's a different issue.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by why_only_15 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:49PM (#19508375)
The US has a very different system in a lot of ways. The UK doesn't have a formal constitution, its executive is subject to the legislature in a way it isn't in the US, one house, etc. The UK is a parliamentary democracy and the US is a republic. Also, the UK wasn't a democracy in any meaningful sense in 1776. The History Of Parliament Online is a very useful resource (https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/research/constitue...). Out of some 6 million people in 1776 that lived in Britain, approximately 100,000 had the right to vote, most of which were in a small segment (i.e. the ability to vote was highly geographically concentrated).
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by dragonwriter on Thursday March 28, 2019 @09:14AM (#19511833)
> The UK doesn't have a formal constitution

The UK doesn't have a single written document that lays out the Constitution, but I wouldn't necessarily call the Constitution informal.

> its executive is subject to the legislature in a way it isn't

True.

> one house,

The UK still has a bicameral, not unicameral, legislature, though it now has priority in the lower house (unlike the US, which retains greater power in the undemocratic upper house, a feature it copied from the UK which has since shed it.)

> The UK is a parliamentary democracy and the US is a republic.

The UK is a representative democracy with a ceremonial monarch and the US is a representative democracy without a ceremonial monarch; the absence of a monarch is the sum total of the difference indicated by “republic”.

> Also, the UK wasn't a democracy in any meaningful sense in 1776.

Neither, though, was the US in 1776, or 1789, for much the same reason: the colonies had imported and retained (in some cases added to) the kinds of restrictions on the franchise found in the UK, and kept them past the revolution and Constitution, which left decision of who could vote to the States (and, while not in the federal government, also often had even more stringent property, etc., requirements for office holders.)

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by wahern on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:32AM (#19509772)
> Also, the UK wasn't a democracy in any meaningful sense in 1776

And the U.S. was? Much like the UK, the franchise was reserved to a subset of land freeholders. Only about 10-20% of the US population was eligible to vote. (http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-8-1-b-w...)

The UK did and still does have a written constitution, it's just not entirely written, and what's written is spread across multiple documents--the Magna Carta being one of the obvious ones. The US is not that different. Much of the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, was copied verbatim from the written parts of the English constitution. And even conservative American jurists who reject Substantive Due Process regularly recognize unwritten constitutional rules and norms, especially those deriving from English constitutional norms.

Aside from federalism (where states maintained some sovereignty), the most fundamental constitutional differences between the US and the UK relate to judicial review and parliamentary supremacy. But it didn't become clear until 1803 in Marbury v. Madison that the US would follow a different path. If Congress was the final arbiter of legislative constitutionality (as many believed in 1789, and some conservatives argue to this day), there would be little if any functional difference between the US and UK constitutional systems. Indeed, now that US Senators are directly elected, but for Marbury v Madison even federalism would be little different than UK's so-called devolution. Japan nominally has judicial review, but their supreme court has zero inclination to strike down legislation so in practice the Japanese legislature has similar constitutional powers as the UK parliament.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by ed_balls on Thursday March 28, 2019 @06:22AM (#19510824)
> Also, the UK wasn't a democracy in any meaningful sense in 1776.

One could argue that UK is still not a democracy now. House of lords, Queen's hard and soft power, traditions, no legally binding referendum that can be done without government or parliament.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by nradov on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:35PM (#19508993)
When the US Constitution was adopted the UK monarch still had enough power that it couldn't reasonably be considered a democracy. The exact point when the UK became a modern democracy is open to debate as power gradually devolved from the monarch to Parliament, but US democracy has absolutely been around longer. There's no legitimate historical debate on that.

And very little of the US governmental system was copied from the UK. A parliamentary system is just totally different from what we have.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by arminiusreturns on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:00PM (#19513483)
Yeah, Madison researched every form of government in history, including native American government systems, as the backdrop for his constitutional work. To say we just copied the UK is not a true assessment in any sense.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by throw0101a on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:46AM (#19511615)
> We've got the oldest surviving written Constitution, sure, but that's a different issue.

According to this, San Marino is still using their 1600 constitution:

* https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/oldest-constitutions-sti...

There is some debate on whether it counts though.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by ameister14 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:53PM (#19514734)
I'd argue that the UK wasn't a modern democracy until the Parliament Acts allowed for the Commons to override the House of Lords.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:35AM (#19509285)
UK doesn't have proper separation of powers to this day, due to parliamentary sovereignty.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by kdtsh on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:34PM (#19507391)
Australia’s constitution doesn’t quite operate in the same way, but the Australian federal government’s powers are enumerated in the constitution much like in the US constitution - as you say, governments are given positive rights by the constitution, and restricted in their power in other areas.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by CobrastanJorji on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:28PM (#19507344)
Yeah, but the problem is that the Constitution says that you can't infringe on the right to bear arms, and telling me that I can't have a mutated anthrax grenade is, technically, infringing on my right to bear arms. The only reason we're still alive is that lawyers don't parse words in the way that engineers do.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mirimir on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:31PM (#19507821)
Hey, years ago I took a firearms safety class. The instructor joked that the Second Amendment ought to include tactical nukes ;)
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by zaphirplane on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:43PM (#19506957)
Of course “they” would say that. Easier to sell than enshrining rights in the constitution makes it impossible for us to encroach on those rights ;) tin foil stay strong
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by danieltillett on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:57PM (#19508435)
We don't actually have a constitutional freedom of religion in Australia. The first election I ever voted in this was a proposed change to the constitution and it was voted down. If the Australian government want it could establish a state religion and ban the rest - not that this would ever happen in practice.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bigger_cheese on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:01PM (#19508808)
I think the way it is worded in the Constitution is that the Commonwealth Government (i.e national government) can't make laws enforcing/restricting a religion. I.e can't ban/mandate a religion Australia wide. But where it falls down is there is nothing stopping the individual States from doing so (i.e New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland etc could make state laws banning religions).

I think that is one of the main problems with our constitution the states have a heap of power. I believe it is due to the history of federation where the six states came together to form Australia. There was a bunch of compromises required to get everyone on board, which is why you have things like Tasmania having the same number of Senators as NSW despite the huge disparity in total population.

Because of all the state provisions it is very difficult to make changes to the constitution. It requires a referendum with an overall national majority and a majority of all the states is also needed. That's why borderline referendums never seem to pass only the ones that are overwhelming supported ever get up (depending on your pov this is a feature not a bug).

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by danieltillett on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:26AM (#19509508)
Yes establishing a state religion is a power retained by the states. The states were independent countries before federation and so they retain a great deal of power.

In practice this is not something that we have to worry about here in Australia. The high court has rule in a few case an implied right to freedom of religion in the constitution in much the same way they have done so for freedom of speech - although freedom of speech seems to be under far more attack of late here.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:37AM (#19509299)
This is exactly how the American constitution worked originally, as well, and for all the same reasons. Many things in it are compromises, and the Federalist Papers say as much in some of the rationales.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:32AM (#19509270)
You can't protect rights and freedoms from intrusion by the government by statute, which is kinda the whole point of having a constitution. If it's just a law saying the government can't do something, then it'll do that by first repealing that law - if all you need is a simple majority, the votes are always there.

The reason why the US constitution is so hard to amend is because of how high the bars are for the process - 2/3 in the House and in the Senate to submit amendments, and 3/4 of all state legislatures to ratify them. Or if going via state convention, then 2/3 of all state legislatures to request it, but still 3/4 to ratify anything that comes out of it.

I don't think it was a bad system originally, back before the 14th Amendment - since originally all those restrictions were on what the federal government can do, not on what the states can do. Between the states and their citizens, it was supposed to be taken care of by their respective state constitutions, which are generally much easier to amend - and even if they didn't, they wouldn't block other states from experimenting. With 14A, and the gradual incorporation of various constitutional protections on state level via it, the process to amend it needs to be more democratic IMO, and acknowledge the people, not just the states.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by threatofrain on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:59AM (#19510463)
I think it's the splitting of government power that secures people's rights, not the fact that the Constitution needs many votes to amend. Because someone still has to enforce the Constitution; of course it's going to be the government. Your rights are just words if the government doesn't care.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by throw0101a on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:56AM (#19511690)
> I think it's the splitting of government power that secures people's rights [...] Your rights are just words if the government doesn't care.

And how did that go with Trump-GOP in the White House and the House-GOP and Senate-GOP? See also Kavanaugh and the ignoring/suppression of Garland.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:18PM (#19516165)
The courts did block a bunch of stuff coming from this administration.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by xxpor on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:10PM (#19507192)
In the US there's no explicit right to vote.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:19PM (#19507265)
> In the US there's no explicit right to vote.

Yes, there is.

There is no explicit general prohibition on laws impairing that specific right the way there is some other rights, but the existence of the right is explicit, among other places in Amendment XV, Sec. 1: “The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” This explicitly states that the right exists, and then goes on to prohibit denying or abridging it on an enumerated set of bases. (There's two other voting rights amendments following the same pattern.)

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by int_19h on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:43AM (#19509334)
This implies that the right can be denied for other reasons, which would mean that it's not an inherent right of citizens. And, indeed, courts do not consider e.g. restrictions on voting for citizens with criminal records to be unconstitutional.

And it's not like it's a new invention. I mean, women couldn't vote back when 15A was passed, and they still couldn't vote after. It wasn't a surprise, either - many suffragists opposed 15A even before it was ratified for this exact reason, because its wording made it clear that it wasn't covering sex.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by adventured on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:33PM (#19507383)
To add to dragonwriter's post, there is also the 17th amendment:

"The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures."

It's exceptionally clear that it's an explicit right to vote for the election of senators.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by xxpor on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:52AM (#19509621)
Why couldn't women vote for Senators then?
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by talaketu on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:54PM (#19508414)
> gives us the right to vote.

Not true.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by AndrewGaspar on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:44PM (#19506962)
> the right to vote

Yeah, but they mess even that up by making it obligatory. :)

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by satori99 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:03PM (#19507143)
Involuntary voting means that religious and other special interest groups cannot easily use their organizations to out-vote the more apathetic citizens. And therefore serious parties must target the center, or close to it, with policy.

I see this as an advantage of compulsory voting over other systems. Especially when voting is quick and painless, usually taking no more than 10 or 20 mins on a weekend every three years or so.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by tacticus on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:59PM (#19507102)
You have to go. you don't have to pick. Makes it difficult for states to disenfranchise people through budget cuts.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:06PM (#19507645)
By the time and effort spent going to vote, I bet nobody will just cast a null vote.

Compulsory voting is more democratic. The USA should make voting compulsory!

Ditto with the brexit referendum! If only they made it compulsory, brexit would have probably not passed (presumably many people just didn't expect brexit to win, and so didn't bother going to vote).

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by aesthethiccs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:26PM (#19507790)
> I bet nobody will just cast a null vote.

Have you heard of the term donkey voting? null votes in Australia are about 5% of total votes (federally) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-04/informal-votes-to-hav...

Also it's only sorta compulsory in a sense, you can just never register and never have to vote. but if you do register you will get fined if you don't vote. the amount of unregistered voters is about 4% of the population. so at it's worst it's atleast more representative then some other democracies.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by judge2020 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:51PM (#19507017)
> like the US with its right to bear arms

I find this funny because the SCOTUS basically can change the Constitution whenever they want.

The second amendment only states that the United States itself has a right to bear arms in order to defend itself (have a Militia)[0]. It didn't provide citizens the right to personal protection by guns until a 2008 Supreme Court case [1].

0: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by ameister14 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:04PM (#19507153)
You find it funny because you have a misunderstanding over what the constitution says. It doesn't say that the state has external threats and so needs a militia, which is what would be implied by your 'state defending itself' reading. It says a militia is necessary to secure a free State, and so we can't infringe the right to bear arms. That doesn't just mean external threats, and in fact is rooted in the idea that the people are the defense of their community and the holders of their government.

That means it's not about the State defending itself, it's about the people defending the free State. The Heller case simply extended the existing individual right to own guns in order to protect their free State to that of protecting your person and home.

SCOTUS didn't change the Constitution however they wanted. That's ridiculous. They applied existing law to a situation they were asked to judge.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by judge2020 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:27PM (#19508620)
My point is that the original intent of the amendment was not for citizens to bear arms for their self-defense. Guns (muskets) at the time were not thought to be used for protection because they were not very accurate and were slow to reload, making them ineffective against intruders. Multiple books and records show that the founding fathers/federalists/etc. only regarded the second amendment in a military context.

> The Heller case simply extended the existing individual right to own guns in order to protect their free State to that of protecting your person and home.

This is what I am saying is "funny" - While the decision was well-informed and carefully thought out, the SCOTUS did effectively change the constitution by changing what some text meant. It's not different than case law being the biggest precedent for regular legal proceedings.

This is more a debate of whether or not the Constitution should be interpreted based on the original intent of those who wrote it. SCOTUS has shown that they think we should adapt to the times and that the United States can progressive deal with issues, and I believe it worked out in a positive manner for the specific 2008 case granting citizens more rights and freedoms.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by tracker1 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:56PM (#19507071)
"... shall not be infringed" because of the need for a "well regulated militia," not for said militia.

It's an example of why the right is needed. Especially given the people raised a violent coup against their own government. These people were not in favor of disarming the public in general... to interpret it otherwise would be effectively changing the law.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Nasrudith on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:52AM (#19511659)
Well regulated also essentially meant "competent" then as well. So it could be interpretted as "so our militia can have enough firearms practice to shoot straight and know how to fire, maintain, and reload the right to have gund shall not be infringed".

Essentially like a justification for public schools and compulsory education being "literacy is essential to function be an informed citizen which is needed for self government". Just like how merely being able to shoot well isn't enough to be a good soldier but it is important.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by tracker1 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @07:45PM (#19517777)
"well regulated" meant able able-bodied male of adult age. Your definition is likely far more constrained. "practice" in this sense is not generally mentioned, as they were required to own a conventional firearm for the time.

As to "training," there wasn't a regimen of regular firearms training per-se. It was generally considered common knowledge to know how to load and fire one's musket. As to any comparison of modern training, it seems to me like today's police, at least in major cities like NYC receive less training than a typical gun owner outside major cities.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Nasrudith on Friday March 29, 2019 @09:45AM (#19521601)
I meant it as unconstrained actually - the rationale and the right are separate things. Essentially unrestricted for the sake of practicality. Thus two separate points.

1. It is important to have a populace capable of using firearms. 2. The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Of course the interpretations are for better or worse living in practice regardless of plain text - freedom of the press still applies to internet and unfortunately the special pleading of obscenity laws have survived for centuries.