News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by JeanMarcS on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:01PM (#19483694)
> Young men starting in life should avoid running into debt. There is scarcely anything that drags a person down like debt. It is a slavish position to get in...

Well, that put student debt in perspective no ?

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by jobu on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:14PM (#19484379)
He clarified this point it a bit in the second paragraph:

"Mr. Beecher advised young men to get in debt if they could to a small amount in the purchase of land, in the country districts. “If a young man,” he says, “will only get in debt for some land and then get married, these two things will keep him straight, or nothing will.” This may be safe to a limited extent, but getting in debt for what you eat and drink and wear is to be avoided"

In some ways, student debt is similar to land in that it can provide a return on investment that allows for paying off the debt over time. The main difference being that land is tangible and can be sold to pay off the debt completely.

Borrowing for food, clothing, and other items that tend to be used up or worn out before they're paid off does seem like a terrible idea.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by DougWebb on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:24PM (#19484480)
Buying the wrong land, or overpaying for it, will still get you into trouble. You might be able to sell it, but not for as much as you paid for it. Student debt has the same problem: get the wrong degree, or overpay for the degree you've gotten, and you'll lose in the long run.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by virtuexru on Monday March 25, 2019 @03:01PM (#19485633)
> In some ways, student debt is similar to land in that it can provide a return on investment that allows for paying off the debt over time.

Comparing student debt to buying land is funny.

At least with land you are guaranteed to be the owner of an asset. Something physical, a location, that other folks might at some point pay a price for (regardless of what you paid).

Student loans don't guarantee anything. :)

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @06:39AM (#19490587)
>Student loans don't guarantee anything. :)

No, not even a pass.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by pseudoanonymity on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:25PM (#19484498)
Many full-time students use their loan funds to pay for food and clothing, in addition to tuition and housing.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by astura on Monday March 25, 2019 @02:12PM (#19485071)
So?

In my case the choice was use student loan money to pay for living expenses (which were extremely meager) while in college or not go to college at all. It was part of my educational investment.

It was totally worth it, the loans are long paid off, and the investment has paid untold dividends in the form of a salary I wouldn't have the chance at if I didn't go to school.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by swagasaurus-rex on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:15PM (#19495097)
I recently discovered a co-worker of mine who did not attend university for programming is paid nearly the same wage as myself, with $40,000 in debt due to higher education.

He went to a several month long intensive coding bootcamp, with tuition fees for the entire course is between $10-15k

For comparison, I am paid $58/hr with benefits, my co worker is paid $50.

Higher education is vastly overcharged and overrated.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by monocasa on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:49PM (#19484780)
You can lose access to grants if you work enough to support yourself.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by loudmax on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:16PM (#19483846)
Barnum himself spent much of his life in and out of debt. He was a great showman and many of the performances he arranged were extreme financial successes, but he was a profligate spender and he was always one disaster away from going deep into dept.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by zeckalpha on Monday March 25, 2019 @07:48PM (#19487904)
Sounds familiar to my modern ears. I wonder who Barnum would be today?
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by gridlockd on Monday March 25, 2019 @02:07PM (#19484987)
"Do as I say, not as I do!"
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by dta5003 on Monday March 25, 2019 @03:24PM (#19485897)
More charitably, perhaps he is relaying advice he learned the hard way.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by nathanvanfleet on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:46PM (#19484743)
Is this a good reason to go into debt?
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by stronglikedan on Monday March 25, 2019 @02:26PM (#19485233)
Strange inference of yours, but regardless, the answer is "no", and I'm sure Barnum could provide the anecdata were he still able to communicate.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by slg on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:53PM (#19484189)
It is weird to see this mindset on a site that is basically founded on the idea that taking on debt can be valuable. What would the startup scene be like if everyone avoided debt at all costs?
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by lumost on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:02PM (#19484281)
Selling equity in a startup is very different from taking on debt, with debt your committing the business to a strategy, if it doesn't work the business will probably fold.

While this makes sense for capex intensive businesses. It's an irrational choice for a tech startup that may need to pivot, partner or be acquired. For those choices you need a source of capital with similar incentives as the founders.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by cat199 on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:36PM (#19484621)
> Selling equity in a startup is very different from taking on debt, with debt your committing the business to a strategy

wha? selling debt you are committing yourself to a financial obligation, selling equity you are committing yourself to a strategy in the hope that that strategy will be successful.. yes, it is not binding fiscally and so the strategy can be renegotiated without penalty, but that doesn't by proxy imply the converse that debt inherently requires a fixed strategy..

this is why you can get cash flow/line of credit loans based simply on historical accounting data, etc..

that said getting loans under false pretenses is also fraud. YMMV

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by xiaosun on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:18PM (#19484428)
If the equity sold has preferred returns or liquidity preferences, then the impact of the compounding cost to common shareholders is not too dissimilar from the impact of debt.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by slg on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:44PM (#19484718)
From a business perspective equity is just debt with less defined terms. That gives the business more flexibility and might allow it to pivot, but the obligation to pay back funds in some way is the same.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by ramblerman on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:00PM (#19484261)
A company taking on debt and yourself as a person are wildly different things.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by andrewtbham on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:57PM (#19484222)
Even though many startups use convertible notes... it's not real debt that will haunt you for years to come and compound. It's selling equity.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by golergka on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:01PM (#19484280)
Debt and investment are two very different things.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by abfan1127 on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:26PM (#19483938)
Dave Ramsey says the same things.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by giancarlostoro on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:48PM (#19484152)
There is nothing new under the sun.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by SketchySeaBeast on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:04PM (#19483726)
Also mortgages.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by bencoder on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:18PM (#19483869)
the very next paragraph:

> Mr. Beecher advised young men to get in debt if they could to a small amount in the purchase of land, in the country districts. <snip>

> This may be safe to a limited extent, but getting in debt for what you eat and drink and wear is to be avoided.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by i_am_proteus on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:07PM (#19483759)
Secured debt and unsecured debt are different animals entirely.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by derekp7 on Monday March 25, 2019 @12:53PM (#19484192)
Are mortgages really debt though? Because even though you owe, you also own as much as you owe (except during a market downturn of course). Whereas debt for a depreciating asset (like a car, or most things that go on a credit card) are what I would consider "real" debt. In other words, keep your net debt low or non existent (when looking at a balance sheet).
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by burlesona on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:00PM (#19484258)
If you owned a house in 2008, I assure you, you'd feel that your mortgage was real debt.

Or if you ever got laid off.

Or if you ever got injured or severely sick and found yourself with shocking hospital bills.

When life hits you with something like that, suddenly that monthly payment, and the risk of foreclosure, bankruptcy, and severely damaged credit, all looms large over your head like the Sword of Damocles.

Yes a mortgage is real debt.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by pm90 on Monday March 25, 2019 @03:26PM (#19485913)
Sure, but most people who do take on mortgages do just fine. There will be exceptions but on the average, taking on mortgage to purchase a home in the US is generally a safe bet.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by nightski on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:51AM (#19489383)
The majority of what you said is true of renting also.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by astura on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:30PM (#19484560)
Yes, they certainly are a debt, but they are, in general, considered a "good debt." Educational debt and business startup debt are also, in general, considered "good debt."

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/12/good-debt-bad-de...

That being said, it's a general statement, specific cases of those can be "bad debts" if they are taken out recklessly and/or without forethought and planning and budgeting.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by pmoriarty on Monday March 25, 2019 @02:38PM (#19485388)
"Are mortgages really debt though? Because even though you owe, you also own as much as you owe (except during a market downturn of course)."

You also pay interest, which could be a huge amount (depending on how quickly, if ever, you pay off your principal).

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by derekp7 on Monday March 25, 2019 @04:20PM (#19486401)
The interest though isn't debt -- as soon as you sell the property, you only owe at that time the remaining balance, not the total amount of interest you would pay. In other words, interest is what you pay to rent the money used to buy the house.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by moorhosj on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:24PM (#19484487)
==Because even though you owe, you also own as much as you owe (except during a market downturn of course).==

Do you own that much? Let's put some real numbers on this. You buy a $350k house, and put down $70k (20%). That leaves you with a $280k mortgage at 4%. This gives you a monthly mortgage payment of $1,337.

If you pay that monthly, you would own 51% of the house ($175k of equity) some time in the 16th year of your mortgage. After making 188 mortgage payments. Note, this doesn't include housing value appreciation.

COST

20% down - $70k

mortgage payments ($1,337 * 188) - $251,356

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by sk5t on Monday March 25, 2019 @04:36PM (#19486536)
I suspect the parent is talking about leverage; and, your view of cumulative mortgage payments ignored the time value of money.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by ska on Monday March 25, 2019 @04:12PM (#19486327)
Of course it's debt. But it is secured debt, which is a bit of different risk profile.

Never forget though, you are paying quite a bit for the use of that money (i.e. the banks). This is mitigated in a rising market, but lots of houses (well land, really) don't appreciate fast enough to counter this.

Not to mention the additional costs. It might be more accurate to think of your house as a depreciating asset (the house) bundled with a (hopefully) appreciated asset (the land it is on)

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by wonderwonder on Monday March 25, 2019 @08:35PM (#19488166)
Sure, you pay interest on the loan. By the time the loan is paid off you have generally paid well in excess of the original loan amount back to the lender. Borrow 100k at 4% for 30 years and at the end you have paid $171,870. Maybe the home appreciates at the same rate, maybe not. You are right in that it is better than credit card debt my a mile though.
Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by epr on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:13PM (#19484377)
> I do not speak of merchants buying and selling on credit, or of those who buy on credit in order to turn the purchase to a profit.

Did you really just not read the article at all? He is clearly referring to things like consumer debt rather than investments.

Re:Golden Rules for Making Money (1880) by dang on Monday March 25, 2019 @01:42PM (#19484682)
Could you please follow the site guidelines when posting here? Your comment would be fine with just the last sentence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html