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Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by 013a on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:36PM (#19436221)
There's so much that this will hurt in the gaming industry. Some of my thoughts:

1. As subscription services take over, the upfront revenue game studios see will drop. This is just simple math: Xbox Game Pass costs $10/month, which means its the total cost of a AAA game over 6 months. In a traditional model, many gamers would expect to buy, lets say, 2 AAA games per year. In this new model, I can play as many as I want. And even if I only play 1 or 2 every year, I'm almost definitely going to be "dabbling" in the collection for other games I may want to play, ESPECIALLY if they're instant-on like Stadia. Even if they pay-out to studios based on some metric derived from time spent in game, there's no way studios will get the same level of income as they did before. (note: this is exactly why Spotify is having such a hard time, and why they're branching out beyond music. royalties abstracted behind a subscription service suck for the bottom line)

2. So upfront revenue drops. How do studios make that up? In-game transactions. They're already huge, and they'll just keep getting bigger.

3. So what, micro transactions (mtx) are the "new normal". Well, the top 5% of games can afford that decreased upfront revenue by making it up in mtx (think: Fortnite, Apex Legends, CoD). The trailing 95% can't (think: Indie titles).

4. Beyond that, you can bet your bottom dollar that Stadia will pay out tons to the AAA studios just to get their names on the platform, given that Google has no first party studios to speak of. Assassins Creed gets enough upfront revenue to make it worth their while, meanwhile the next indie darling is left out to dry, further balkanizing the gaming industry

5. Switching gears: A massive number of software engineers in the industry entered it because of gaming. Games, even back in the 90s, were such a clear application and value of computers that it was obvious, even to children, that they'd be something huge. It inspired a generation, to not only play, but to mod and even make their own. Now, we're moving that all off into the cloud, hidden from the next generation. Google wants you to own a Chromebook and consume their products, not understand how they work.

6. Speaking of modding: Its literally the source of the world's most popular games. Battle Royale? You can trace its roots back to mods for ARMA and Minecraft. MOBA? Dota, a mod for warcraft. Creativity happens in environments that large corporations can't recreate, and traditionally a great platform has been starting with a base game, a great game, that some studio created, then exerting your creativity on top of that platform. It benefited everyone, including large AAA studios who could then copy your idea and make millions. Yeah, good luck modding on a blackboxed server a hundred miles away.

7. But fine. I guess we're moving into the future and this is part of it. Except, there are millions, even BILLIONS, of people around the world without the internet capability to even join this service. Google tried to help solve this with Fiber, and gave up. Its fucking hard. They'd rather do easy, cool things, like cloud gaming. Modern consoles are bad enough; my brother, who lives just an hour outside of a top 10 US city, recently told me that he downloaded Fortnite on Xbox for the kids. It took a week of 24/7 downloading. Most games drop with day 1 patches in the dozens of gigabytes, even if you buy the disk in-stores. The sheer arrogance of Google, to get up on stage and claim this service is gaming for EVERYONE, the apex of accessibility, is disgusting to me. They're stuck so far up their own ass they've become the ouroboros.

8. Well, streaming games have taken over the world. Let's say you want to compete with Google on this streaming game front. All of the top three cloud providers now want to get into game streaming. So, no way can you compete on cost there with them; they own the data centers and give their game streaming divisions nice fat discounts. They all have the pockets to design nice custom silicon with AMD specialized for the task. And, oh by the way, all the latest games are now optimized for this silicon (whether its the custom AMD chips in the PS4, or XB1, or whatever cloud streaming service we're talking about, they're all custom). You're stuck with off-the-shelf cards. Ha! Nvidia won't let you deploy their cards in a datacenter [1], because they ALSO want in on this big cash pile they've all convinced themselves exist. So, basically, good luck. The world has balkanized, and penetrating it becomes harder every year.

I hate this. I hate it so much. The only saving grace is that it is inevitable that this will fail to realize the results Google wants, and they'll pull the plug. And maybe the rest of the industry is smart enough to recognize how short-sighted a streaming-first/subscription-first strategy is, for literally everyone involved except the people who rent the metal.

I want to go back to the 2000s. This new world sucks.

[1] https://www.techpowerup.com/239994/nvidia-forbids-geforce-dr...

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by odessacubbage on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:28PM (#19437267)
honestly none of this even matters until they can offer a service with comparable input latency to local play, and so far every indication is that they can't. the whole service falls apart if it feels like shit to play.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mav3rick on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:44PM (#19438415)
Yes you've played the service ? It surely sucks when no reviews are out ? Look for people who have dogfooded and raved about it.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by flukus on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:38AM (#19439595)
Unless they've solve the speed of light issue then we don't need to wait for reviews. Even using a remote desktop on the other side of the city isn't a pleasant thing to be doing full time and that's not remotely as twitch based as gaming.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by 013a on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @10:38AM (#19442659)
I don't think that'll be a huge issue.

Google Cloud has regional US DCs in western Iowa and central South Carolina. A midpoint between those two locations roughly lands on Nashville TN, which is ~600 miles away from either. Light could make a roundtrip of that distance in 6ms. Of course, the internet doesn't allow for latency at the speed of light, but that's the physical limit, and that's plenty; a typical internet browser alone has input lag of 10ms [1]. In order to achieve 60fps, frames have 16ms to be rendered.

But the regional DC is only the worst-case, because they've said they're deploying these things in 7500 locations around the world. That's unprecedented scale for a tier 1 cloud provider at the edge. They know that they have to be close to consumer populations.

Also consider this: Once cloud streaming takes off, we're going to see deeper integration into the frameworks and game engines themselves. Imagine a game engine which is built for streaming. It could do input prediction, doing a "light rendering pass" of frames for N possible inputs the input buffer might receive on the next frame, before it receives them. These custom chips they use have plenty of headroom to do this at 1080p, and most controllers have, what, 12 buttons + all of the joystick states? Depending on the game this might be possible (example, hard to do in multiplayer). Combine that with the natural advantage a cloud-hosted multiplayer game would have in networking with other clients to resolve game-state, and you can see that its not just a strict downgrade; it might be possible that we'll see improvements in the performance of games beyond just the typical "new year better graphics" cycle.

[1] https://www.vsynctester.com/testing/mouse.html

[2] https://shadow.tech/

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by imtringued on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @11:25AM (#19443106)
I watch WebRTC streams from California in Germany with 100ms network latency. Speed of light has never been an issue. Latency within the same continent or within the same city is much lower.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mav3rick on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @03:26AM (#19439777)
People said the same about streaming video services.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by flukus on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:11AM (#19439971)
No they didn't, that was simply a bandwidth issue, we've been streaming video since TV was invented and with the right equipment you could stream video over the internet before the web even existed. No equipment exists that can alter the fundamental speed limit of the universe.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:21AM (#19440025)
Video isn't interactive.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by onorton on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @06:29AM (#19440677)
Yep. This is the kicker. For streaming videos, only bandwidth matters but for video games, both bandwidth and latency matter.

Reminds me a bit of the 30/60 fps fights a few years ago. Sure, 30fps games look more "cinematic" and 60fps movies look uncanny, but 30fps games feel less responsive.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mav3rick on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:23PM (#19436680)
This is such a parochial and short-sighted view. Let's block new technology because "game studios will die". Businesses need to adapt. And if people still like games that don't rely on microtransactions or multiplayer, studios will make them. There is a place for both.

Also, to point 7. guess what billions of people can't afford a console or an expensive PC rig. Yet, in developing countries data is already very cheap if not free. So, this DEFINITELY is a big step closer to unlocking games for them.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by 013a on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:51PM (#19438461)
Do you really think data is delivered to people in those countries in any sort of latency that would make a service like this remotely enjoyable to use? A massive number of people in the US don't even have internet that could support something like Stadia, let alone developing countries.

By comparison, shipping "edge devices" (aka, uh, COMPUTERS) running an 845 Snapdragon or Tegra (like the Switch) is cheap and getting cheaper. What makes more sense: asking someone in a developing country to pay $200 one time for a general purpose computer useful for everything including 1080p gaming, or $10/month in addition to, uh guess what, some computing device they'd already have to own to access Stadia.

The adage goes: never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes barrelling down the highway. I mean, the follow up is usually "but never forget the latency", though in this case that doesn't apply. Point being: the internet isn't the answer to everything, but if the only tool Google has ever known is a hammer then every problem is going to look like a nail.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mav3rick on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:09AM (#19439474)
You clearly have never lived in a developing country to know how many families will balk at spending $200 on a gaming console. Accept your ignorance.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by smadurange on Saturday March 23, 2019 @02:05AM (#19469265)
This isn't new technology. It's just a new product. Actually, it isn't even a new product since others have tried it before.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ajacksified on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:09PM (#19436573)
You hit every single point I tried to make to my friend about half an hour ago. On one hand, I'm terrified that all of this will come to pass; on the other, if this is like any of Google's other projects, it's going to evaporate in two years anyways. Whatever happened to OnLive?
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by 013a on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @11:02PM (#19438530)
It wasn't the right time for OnLive. The tech wasn't there, in networking infrastructure (the internet), compute infrastructure (DC tech), or hardware (graphics cards).

To that last point; it is impossible to understate how fundamentally important Nvidia's Pascal architecture has been to the development of both gaming and AI. In my mind, its the most important computing chipset invented in the 2010s, and belongs among the "world's greatest" chips next to the Intel Core architecture, Apple's A-series, Pentium, and the 8086. It put Nvidia, quite literally, 5 years ahead of the competition almost overnight; AMD is still catching up, three years later, to the perf-per-dollar and perf-per-watt of the GTX 1080.

That chipset, and the cards that were made with it (GTX 1080/1080Ti namely) were the first indication that DC rendering with a stream-to-client architecture was actually possible for video gaming. Before that it was hard to make an economic case for it.

OnLive was purchased by Sony, and its easy to conclude that they repurposed their tech for their Playstation Now service. So it lives on.