News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by bunderbunder on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @01:59PM (#19433527)
I'm starting to suspect that the major cloud vendors are well along on pulling a classic "embrace, extend, extinguish" gambit on that front.

I'm sure there are a percentage of people operating in the cloud who stick judiciously to an open-source stack, and remain masters of their own future as a result. But it seems more common to spread some open source icing on top of a cake made out of ingredients like Beanstalk, Redshift, S3, Lambda, etc. (Or name your favorite non-Amazon cloud vendor's equivalent.) Those companies may be just as locked into their closed-source software vendor of choice as people were locked into Microsoft or IBM or whoever back in the 1990s.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by eeZah7Ux on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:14PM (#19434524)
In the 1980s the lock-in was in hardware: you buy this server, you get our OS and software stack.

In the 90s and 2010s it was software: you buy this software because others are not compatible with it.

Today's lock-in is cloud services. Will people ever learn?

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by jrockway on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:59PM (#19437021)
Is it, though? I feel like the nuts and bolts of cloud services are super commoditized and I can pick up and leave whenever I want. Kubernetes on Amazon (where I am) is going to be close enough to Kubernetes on GCP, and even close enough to just buying some servers and running Kubernetes myself. I don't know all the details of how I will do load balancing when doing it myself, but I work at an ISP and I'm sure the network engineers will help with that. Overall, I'm super non-worried about cloud providers. They're like credit cards, when someone offers you more cash back or more miles or whatever, you just switch to them and don't even think about it. (Why do I even use Amazon? Sheer laziness. Having servers in my own datacenters would probably be much cheaper, but I honestly just want to program and not randomly take a week to install some critical patch to MetalLB, or upgrade the Linux kernel, or find that the Intel EM2384732FOO NICs I got have some bug where they drop every 9878th TCP session.)
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by kelnos on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:26PM (#19437254)
That's only true if you limit yourself to the base infra offerings, or offerings that have direct mostly-compatible alternatives elsewhere.

If I use DynamoDB, I'm stuck with AWS, absent an expensive, difficult migration.

Even with Kubernetes, moving from EKS to your own cluster means spinning up your own k8s masters, which might not be in $RANDOM_DEVELOPER's wheelhouse. And IIRC AWS has their own special things for doing ingress that you'd need to change as well.

Even just going from EC2 to Google's analog might mean rewriting private tooling that specifically uses AWS APIs.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by jrockway on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:53PM (#19437446)
But that's not a cloud provider thing, that's just the same-old locking yourself into proprietary software that we've been doing since computers were first invented. "We have to renew the license on our Fortran compiler because nothing else has the features we use" is exactly the same "I'm stuck on DynamoDB".

As for Ingress, Amazon does have an ingress controller that configures an Application Load Balancer with kubernetes Ingress API objects. I feel like this locks you in less because again, Ingress is standardized. The problem with Ingress specifically is that the standard doesn't cover things people actually want their ingress controller to do, so every implementation has their own set of features. We use nginx... you better believe there are literal nginx.conf snippets inside the Kubernetes API objects to get things to do what we want. So this is just a case of Kubernetes being bad, not really cloud provider lockin. I'm more stuck on nginx than on Amazon.

(As for load balancers; again, Amazon has proprietary configuration parameters that won't be portable, but they don't really do anything important. You can make your Amazon load balancer terminate TLS (a bad idea), and pick which of the 3 Amazon load balancer types you want to use. Switch to Google, and that won't work... but you also probably won't care. The Load Balancer API spec seems to do what people want, so it's relatively commoditized and you won't be sad when you switch providers. We actually have to have a wildcard certificate specifically because Amazon's classic load balancers are so bad. Would be happy to not terminate TLS in the load balancer and have Envoy or Nginx terminate TLS and ask letsencrypt for a new certificate every couple months.)

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by speedplane on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:46AM (#19439363)
> Is it, though? I feel like the nuts and bolts of cloud services are super commoditized and I can pick up and leave whenever I want. Kubernetes on Amazon (where I am) is going to be close enough to Kubernetes on GCP

Sure Kubernetes is an open GCP product, but what about datastore, Spanner, Cloud SQL, their memory cache, urlfetch, and a host of other closed source and private services. Kubernetes seems to be the exception to the rule.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by sien on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:13PM (#19437125)
Exactly.

A world where front ends are deployed on a CDN and the back ends are all containers is very commodity driven. Also infrastructure being set up with code on platforms that target multiple providers like Terraform provides more ability to move systems.

It'll be really interesting to see if AWS can keep their margins in such a world.

Given that MS make huge amounts of money from email and have virtual lock in on corporate email it's very possible, but on the other hand perhaps it won't happen if everyone is, as they tend to be, using open frameworks and generally open systems.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by marmaduke on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @09:54AM (#19442161)
> randomly take a week to install some critical patch to MetalLB, or upgrade the Linux kernel, or find that the Intel EM2384732FOO NICs I got have some bug where they drop every 9878th TCP session

This is hardly the case if you stick to reputable hardware and Linux distros, e.g. Dell servers + CentOS.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by carimura on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @11:25AM (#19443107)
That's why the cloud providers are building higher-level services that ultimately speed up development and increase laziness. They're already higher than k8s now so ultimately that too is an unnecessary time suck from "just programming".
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by kapilvt on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:26PM (#19438338)
my vote on today's lockin even more than cloud is chrome, the web as mono culture, single predominant implementation that every caters to, thats subverting standards (http2/http3). it is the IE of today, and as you say because websites are not compatible with other, and the death of opera and ms implementations is the nail in the coffin.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by scirocco on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:49AM (#19439646)
you forgot virtualization =)
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by setquk on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @02:26PM (#19433902)
Totally agree. I keep crowing IaaS only but everyone has their fingers in their ears going lalalalala. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s just not my funeral now.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by throwaway2048 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @02:19PM (#19433822)
The lock in is far more complete than it ever was in the Microsoft era, with Microsoft of the 90s, you could mostly still choose to just stop buying their crap, and stick with what you had while you migrate, or work out an alternative.

The minute you stop paying a cloud vendor, your entire infrastructure vanishes in a cloud of smoke, and if you relied on their "value add" proprietary services, you are left with basically nothing, not even the ability to run your own code, or in some cases even your data.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by specialist on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:54PM (#19437452)
Chewing on your observation...

During the 90s, the big lock-in strategy was thru proprietary file formats. With cloud, exfiltrating one's own data can get real spendy real quick.

But it seems the lock-in is the fit & finish of one's production env. K8s was the new religion at my last gig. But interop & migrating between on-prem, AWS, Google wasn't easy. All the fiddly bits, like managing VPCs, creds and certs, load balancing tweaks, autoscaling rules, backups, ad nauseam.

Maybe things have gotten easier. Maybe we were doing it wrong. (I'm certain that I had no idea what I was doing.) But I couldn't shake the feeling our effort to leave AWS (if we wanted) was gonna fail.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by anon1m0us on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @02:30PM (#19433960)
schadenfreude for all!

Everyone hated Microsoft for selling software. Everyone hated Microsoft for requiring the world value software monetarily. The world thought programmers were just a bunch of nerds to be taken advantage of. Microsoft said no.

The nerds hated microsoft for making them pay for an operating system.

The nerds got their way. They got free everything.

And now the OSS worls is a convoluted mess. It costs way more to make Ruby on Rails work than just installing IIS and writing some C#.

Now those who said Microsoft was bullying them are the bullies. OSS has become more expensive than the Microsoft equivalent.

No one wants to pay for code at all anymore.

Why couldn't you all see this coming? It was so obvious.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by hutzlibu on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @06:09AM (#19440569)
"The nerds hated microsoft for making them pay for an operating system."

The nerds hated microsoft because microsoft was (and still is in many ways) mandatory.

And they remained that by vendor deals, government contracts etc.

So everybody learned in schools on windows computers and with microsoft office and so on and so on.

Thats the reason, not because of money - it was allways easy to crack windows (I believe intentionally, rather a cracked Windows, contributing to the monopoly, than something else)

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by incompatible on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:57PM (#19437002)
The problem with that setup was that Microsoft wanted all the money to go to Microsoft, not to "nerds" in general.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by quickthrower2 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:35PM (#19436213)
Dispite the argument that it plays into the cloud providers hands, open source has been great for software. For example ASPNET MVC would probably not exist with Ruby on Rails.
[dead]
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @02:56PM (#19434306)
No, because it's random and mostly wrong ramblings.

> Everyone hated Microsoft for selling software.

Not really. They hated it for abusing their monopoly, and for selling a crappy (at the time at least) desktop OS.

> Everyone hated Microsoft for requiring the world value software monetarily.

Not really. Some believed software must be free as in beer and speech, most didn't care. They certainly didn't hate MS for it.

>The nerds hated microsoft for making them pay for an operating system.

Not really. They hated MS for monopoly abuse, a bad OS, too many viruses and security holes, few ways to look under the hood, and fucking forever with IE 6.

>The nerds got their way. They got free everything.

They just got the server. And a lot of the enterprise server is still MS. The desktop is still 90% MS and 10% macOS (with some insignificant Linux percentage). As for mobile it's 40% iOS and 60% Android, which technically it's still OSS, but not in any sense that matters besides the license (nobody cares much, and it's not developed by some community bazaar style, Google calls all the shots, and the good stuff -google apps- are not Open Source).

>And now the OSS worlds is a convoluted mess.

Not really.

>It costs way more to make Ruby on Rails work than just installing IIS and writing some C#.

Yeah, no. If anything RoR is famous for its ease of development. And it costs nothing (besides programmers, which you need in any case), which is why cash-strapped startups prefer RoR and other FOSS solutions over MS.

>Now those who said Microsoft was bullying them are the bullies.

Non sequitur.

>OSS has become more expensive than the Microsoft equivalent.

Non sequitur. OSS is as free as ever (and better than ever).

>No one wants to pay for code at all anymore.

Less want to pay for code, though billions still buy software and pay for services.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by lowercased on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:44PM (#19435627)
> OSS has become more expensive than the Microsoft equivalent.

I watched an MS-supporter at a MS 'dev camp' day conference give a lecture on web hosting. His position - restated multiple times - was that hosting with IIS was cheaper than with Apache/Linux, but hosting companies were in cahoots to artificially inflate the cost of IIS hosting, because it let them justify paying linux admins more. Something about you could programmatically script IIS much faster/easier than Linux, and it was cheaper to integrate with Active Directory, but hosting companies wanted to make MS look bad so they charged more (and made a bigger profit) on MS hosting.

Honestly, even typing it out doesn't make much sense. I tried to get him to clarify the position some at the time (this was... probably 2010-2012 time frame) and... I got some nonsense answer. It was truly nonsensical. But he was passionate. I half-expected the word 'illuminati' to pop up in his presentation.

Linux/Apache is "more expensive" for hosting, but companies charge more for Windows because the Linux people at those companies want to drive people away from Microsoft. I think that was the gist of it...

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by solomatov on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:25PM (#19436085)
>and for selling a crappy (at the time at least) desktop OS.

The GUI of their OS at that time is still superior to what linux desktop provides us with today.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:49PM (#19436360)
I wont disagree.

But the OS was also full of holes (pre-XP: 95, 98, ME), programs would take down the whole system, updates required tons of restarts, and several other issues (BSOD, etc). People use to make memes against Windows, without even being Linux users: regular Windows users were frustrated.

Linux desktop efforts never managed to get a coherent vision, as every 3-4 years somebody had the idea to remake everything and screw compatibility (Gnome 1 to 2, 2 to 3, KDE 1 to 2 to 3 to 4, etc, lots of critical desktop apps changing for no reason, others abandoned, etc. And don't get me started on the audio drivers situation back then, or how it took until 2019 and we still don't have a solid X replacement thats adopted by everybody).

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by emilsedgh on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:10AM (#19439477)
> Linux desktop efforts never managed to get a coherent vision, as every 3-4 years somebody had the idea to remake everything and screw compatibility

That's not why Linux Desktop never got traction.

Linux on Server got traction because thousands of companies all around the world managed to profit from it. A whole ecosystem was created.

When Linux on Desktop was born, Microsoft's platform was already an ecosystem all around the world. Hundreds of thousands of companies had developed applications for MS-DOS and were invested in Microsoft's ecosystem and users had already learnt the paradigms.

Clients were already locked-in on Windows.

Also, the situation regarding compatibility on Linux is not that different on Windows.

KDE changed API 4 times in 25 years. Windows also changed a lot. Visual Basic, WinForms, SilverLight, etc. Actually windows abandoned more API's than KDE and Gnome did.

And you can still build a KDE 1 and statically build and ship it (just like apps in Windows) and it will still run fine. [0]

KDE and Gnome have always been largely volunteered projects. Of course ~500 volunteered developers who develop something on their free time cannot compete with a worldwide ecosystem.

[0] https://www.heliocastro.info/?p=291

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:36AM (#19440112)
>That's not why Linux Desktop never got traction. When Linux on Desktop was born, Microsoft's platform was already an ecosystem all around the world. Hundreds of thousands of companies had developed applications for MS-DOS and were invested in Microsoft's ecosystem and users had already learnt the paradigms. Clients were already locked-in on Windows.

That didn't prevent OS X, from a near bankrupt company in 1998-99 with ~2% of PCs in the US, to get to ~10-15% in the same timespan. And that while still introducing a whole new OS in 2000, and changing CPU architecture in 2005.

Plus, what I described has been described as the reason Linux didn't get traction by both Linus and Eric Raymond, for what's worth.

>Also, the situation regarding compatibility on Linux is not that different on Windows. KDE changed API 4 times in 25 years. Windows also changed a lot. Visual Basic, WinForms, SilverLight, etc. Actually windows abandoned more API's than KDE and Gnome did.

It's not even close. MS still supports running even Win95 apps to this day, whatever they used an "abandoned API", so that's a moot point though. Old VB apps still run fine, etc.

KDE and Gnome on the other hand had large incompatible changes that frustrated devs, community, and general public. Lots of devs in disfavor of the old design/techs just left the community, and those are harder to replace without a salary.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by emilsedgh on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:50AM (#19440155)
> That didn't prevent OS X, from a near bankrupt company in 1998-99 with ~2% of PCs in the US, to get to ~10-15% in the same timespan. And that while still introducing a whole new OS in 2000, and changing CPU architecture in 2005.

Oh my friend you're under-selling Apple.

Apple, the most profitable company in the world, didn't get more than 10-15% of the market share. They didn't break any API's either. And they created their own hardware.

> It's not even close. MS still supports running even Win95 apps to this day, whatever they used an "abandoned API", so that's a moot point though. Old VB apps still run fine, etc.

Linux supports that too. You can still have a KDE1 app running on your Desktop.

Nobody has the incentive to do that. But it's pretty doable technically. Just like it's possible to run a Visual Basic app on Windows.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by Crinus on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @07:46AM (#19441115)
> Linux supports that too. You can still have a KDE1 app running on your Desktop.

It is not the same, under Windows 10 you can run a Win95 app as-is since the OS comes with the necessary APIs and these APIs still get updates.

Under Linux not only nobody has the KDE1 libraries installed, but also not any distribution provides them, they rely on other libraries that are incompatible, are a pain to build and unlike Win32 and similar APIs, KDE1 libraries have never seen any new improvements over the years. As an example for the latter, Win32 applications written for Windows 95 can use the extra text editor control functionality introduced after XP despite this functionality not even existing when they were made.

To provide something equivalent, the Linux desktop needs GUI API that will remain backwards compatible in the future (as nothing can be done about the past anyway) while at the same time getting improvements that apply to both new and existing programs.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:57AM (#19440199)
Apple didn't break any APIs? I think you should examine the history of OSX a little more closely.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by noir_lord on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:17PM (#19436650)
I’m sorry but I disagree, Cinnamon on Fedora is as good a desktop GUI in its day as win2k was in its and imo considerably better than win10 and I started on DOS3.22 so I’ve used them all even ME.

It’s fast, stable, well laid out and very easy to configure.

It also plays well with both gtk and qt apps.

It took a long time but Linux did catch up it’s just by the time it did desktops are less relevant to average people.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:29AM (#19440069)
>It’s fast, stable, well laid out and very easy to configure.

Only if your chance on a "good" compatible laptop. Else all bets are off. The BT/wifi might not work, the video drivers might be problematic, the laptop might not sleep when you close the lid, the fans might blare all the time, and so on.

And even at that, it changes from release to release, whatever the fancy of e.g. Gnome devs strikes them for a non-compatible change, critical functionality is implemented in a ho-hum way, and so on.

And you also need to delve into the minutiae, to know that you should go for "Cinnamon on Fedora" over, e.g. Mint, or Ubuntu (and perhaps the proponents of the latter would say Fedora is shit, and so on).

Problems are always solved by "chose other hardware" and "get another distro".

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by chopin on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @06:25AM (#19440658)
>Only if your chance on a "good" compatible laptop.

So there's no need of "Windows Certified"? I had a fair deal of the problems you described on Windows laptops (private and company provided, all certified for Windows, no less).

Linux desktop has its fair share of problems, but Windows runs far from flawless either. I liked Windows when it didn't spy on users but after switching to Linux I was positively surprised. And some stuff I really care for such as incremental remote backups with a decent user interface runs way better on Linux.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by noir_lord on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @05:20AM (#19440329)
We where discussing purely the GUI not the ancillary stuff.

While I'm sure people have the problems you describe I haven't had them on laptops in the last decade at least, everything has pretty much worked out the box (except Nvidia which works but requires a kicking sadly).

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:06AM (#19439460)
Average people use laptops as desktops.

Gtk and Qt still don't offer a full UI stack with all the Win32 features, guaranteed to be available in all customer desktops.

Basic stuff comparable to DirectDraw, DirectText or a audio stack that doesn't get rebooted every now and then.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:14AM (#19439984)
nobody uses DirectDraw anymore, its a completely antiquated technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectDraw

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:30AM (#19440078)
That's the official MS idea of it. They still support it, and it's still extremely used. Millions of apps don't disappear or get rewritten just because something fancier came out...
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:19AM (#19440010)
Yeah, right.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:36AM (#19440114)
Considering it was last updated in the 1990s and only supports 256 colors and fullscreen, and conflicts in very annoying ways with post Vista+ desktop composition, I think its safe to declare it dead for anything except some old games.

SDL is perfectly comparable, except vastly less of a clunky ancient pain in the ass. That is why almost every 2d indie game uses it and not DirectDraw, so to say linux has nothing comparable to DirectDraw is stupid.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @07:20AM (#19440948)
SDL is not a platform library with driver support.

Yeah, maybe I should state Direct2D as well to see what your answer would be.

So what is the Linux answer to DirectText? Surely not SDL.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @09:39AM (#19441985)
SDL doesn't need driver support, it handles rendering back ends transparently, which is why its so widely used. (drawing is translated into OpenGL, Direct3d, or pretty much anything else)

Freetype and Cairo are the direct equivalent of Direct2d and DirectWrite (which is what i suspect you mean by DirectText) which virtually everything on linux uses.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @10:38AM (#19442660)
Yeah the Cairo that bashed by ISO C++ game group as being based on legacy drawing concepts and the FreeType that still doesn't handle properly text display on HD monitors.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by noir_lord on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:40PM (#19444682)
Linux had been my primary OS for over two decades and modern Linux is at least as pretty as win10 and I prefer its font rendering (there will be a degree of familiarity favouring that I'm sure).

You keep bringing up these arguments as though they are show stoppers and yet people using Linux as a desktop never mention them.

My mum's been on Linux since 12.04 and has never once said "You know what I need DirectText" users don't care how text gets on the screen only that text gets on the screen.

Edit: should mention she doesn't just use it as a glorified browser container she uses libre office, gimp and a few other programs, organises her music and all the stuff an average user her age would do on windows.

To her it is entirely a functional windows replacement, enough that when I upgrade her machine her request was "can I have that minty thing?"

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by kelnos on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:31PM (#19437290)
I guess that depends on what you mean by "at that time". My current Linux desktop (Xfce) is way better than Win95 or Win2k. I stopped using Windows around then, so I can't comment on WinXP or newer.

I think arguably a current Linux distro/desktop designed for non-technical users is better for them than Win95 or Win2k was.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by chii on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:48PM (#19437404)
I (a laymen) buy a random tablet pen, and it works immediately on windows. To get it to work on linux, may be there's already a driver, may be it's not supported. Either way, it's a gamble if it works on linux.

Tell me that windows isn't still better for the laymen?

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by neltnerb on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @09:25PM (#19437999)
The sheer number of times I've had issues with Windows drivers is anecdotal, but consider carefully. I've had impossible to boot systems because the network driver isn't included in the core installation media. I've had video cards not work out of the box and require me to install massively bloated control centers to use. And the number of complaints from unexpected reboots? And that's in a pretty standardized computer lab, trying to make my Grandma's computer use the correct resolution on her monitor was literally impossible.

I guess it depends on how you define laymen? I think Ubuntu worked out of the box with everything I've thrown at it in years.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by kelnos on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @02:29AM (#19489672)
Did you even read what I wrote? I literally did not say what you're asking me to defend.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by sfifs on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @08:57PM (#19437828)
Not at all. I very much prefer vanilla Ubuntu front end of my personal laptop to MS Windows. I am still on Win 7 on my work laptop so it is tolerable but I'm definitely going Mac instead of Win 10 abomination next upgrade.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:08AM (#19439467)
Don't forget to get a keyboard and screen insurance on top of the premium price.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by coldtea on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:39AM (#19440124)
I will, for one. I thought you were OK with paying for good stuff, like Lisp compilers/IDEs or other tooling.

Suddenly it's bad to charge a premium?

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @06:19AM (#19440629)
I am quite confortable paying for stuff, do it all the time.

What I don't do is to pay premium for the previlege to use keyboards that break down with a single dust particle and screens that get scratched with the laptop's own keyboard, that might not be replaced without the additional Apple Care package.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by anth_anm on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:04PM (#19434396)
Embrace, Extend, Engulf?

I'm not sure what you call it when Amazon can pretty much just take your project over when you piss them off.

Mongo is getting EEE'ed.

Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by Guthur on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:59PM (#19435799)
Imo mongo tried to change the rules of the game to be in their favor and AWS reacted in their best long term interests. And whether or not you like it that's fair, AWS were not in breach of the original software contract.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by linkregister on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @08:40PM (#19437731)
Oh well, if it's legal I guess it's ok. Why debate or discuss anything? The case is closed everybody, it's legal!
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by egypturnash on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @11:50PM (#19438776)
Heavens forbid morals should enter into the discussion. All laws are perfectly rational and sensible and none of them have ever been put into place at the behest of major corporations with a lot of money to throw into buying politicians.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by isostatic on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:55PM (#19436986)
Microsoft were never in breach of anything legally. If they'd have had their way we'd still be on IE6.
Re:Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed ... by gnomewascool on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @07:54AM (#19441156)
Agreed that something being legal doesn't make it right, but some of Microsoft's behaviour was illegally monopolistic.