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Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by gmueckl on Friday March 15, 2019 @11:54AM (#19400807)
There is a huge discrepancy between the described motivation and the actual proposed section 126a. The proposal from January that I have here[1] only applies to a couple of explicitly enumerated potential crimes like propagation of child pornography and money forgery. Plus, the prosecution would need to prove that you created the service with the purpose of furthering these crimes. Also, the service must have some kind of access control. I do not see how a Tor exit node would fall under these criteria. A site hiding behind an onion URL would be a completely different matter.

[1] https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-01...

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by kbwt on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:41PM (#19403440)
There is also a huge discrepancy between the proposal from January and the proposal that is being voted on: https://www.internet-strafrecht.com/wp-content/plugins/downl...

A few highlights:

- Instead of "providing an internet-based service", the crime is now "facilitating access to an internet-based service".

- It is no longer a requirement that access to the service be restricted.

- The law now applies to all crimes, rather than just the specific crimes that were listed before.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by gmueckl on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:13PM (#19403780)
Thanks for pointing this out! Wow... this is something else.

I'm confused by the fact that the document you linked to is labeled "recommendation". The recommended changes are indeed much, much broader than the original draft and have me worried. However, I must admit that I do not know if these recommendations are changes that will be applied unconditionally or not. I am not familiar enough with the procedures within the Bundesrat.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by yorwba on Friday March 15, 2019 @08:07PM (#19405483)
On the other hand, the amended draft adds a fourth paragraph that explicitly excludes cases where commiting crimes is of only secondary importance (I guess the Zwiebelfreunde lobbied for this addition to protect TOR) and also actions of authorized personnel (to keep police honeypots legal, I presume). So the law is broader in some ways, but more specific in others.
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by craftyguy on Friday March 15, 2019 @08:51PM (#19405683)
> the crime is now "facilitating access to an internet-based service".

Does that include cafes that provide internet access to customers?

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by cabalamat on Saturday March 16, 2019 @12:54AM (#19406415)
Or, for that matter, manufacturing computers with ethernet or wifi connections?
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by rurban on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:50AM (#19406839)
But was still restricted to only "Betreiben von internetbasierten Handelsplattformen für illegale Waren und Dienstleistungen". => Operating Internet-based trading platforms for illegal goods and services. i.e. a illegal darknet platform, not a tor exit node itself, if it's not created to help for illegal purposes. They mention the darknet and tor, but this doesn't made it the sole target of this law.

Otherwise they would outlaw bitcoin scramblers also, which is mostly used for illegal, not privacy purposes.

What is bonkers is now the recommendation of the lead legal council and some committee on internal affairs to broaden the wording to "facilitating access" which could be interpretated as anything, and thus will not pass any critical review by law. Those guys just need to be fired.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by yorwba on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:39PM (#19401346)
The motivation section of the proposal you linked to contains the very illuminating sentence

Der Entwurf zielt darauf, das Betreiben von auf die Förderung illegaler Zwecke ausgerichteten Plattformen unabhängig von dem Nachweis der Beteiligung an einzelnen konkreten Handelsgeschäften unter Strafe zu stellen.

My translation:

The draft aims to penalize the operation of platforms directed at supporting illegal activities, independent of proof of participation in individual specific trades.

I.e. the law is drafted to close a loophole where you can open a black market site, lovingly curate illegal goods into categories and offer your escrow services to potential customers, but you can only be prosecuted once the police can find someone who actually used your service. Instead, they'd prefer to be able to shut it down beforehand.

All in all, I'm not too worried that the law will be passed in a form that outlaws operating Tor nodes.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by eleitl on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:15PM (#19401833)
> he law is drafted to close a loophole where you can open a black market site

The point is that the law says any Tor onion service market is illegal, by definition.

And it's obviously only a first step before outlawing anonymization for the general public, including a ban on encryption.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by gmueckl on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:26PM (#19401975)
No, not any service. Read the actual proposed section 126a. The service must be related to one of the listed criminal activities to be illegal. In essence, this law is aimed at dark net sites like Silk Road.
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by fapjacks on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:48PM (#19402224)
Who gets to decide what "related" means?
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by derefr on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:56PM (#19402329)
Why are you trying to nit-pick the law based on the words the GP used in their gloss of it, rather than reading what the text of the law actually says?

The whole point of legal jargon is to say things in an airtight way. You cannot summarize legal jargon without removing the airtight-ness—lawyers really do use as few words as they can manage to get a concept across (in a loophole-less manner), so removing any single word further usually reintroduces a loophole. This implies that there is no point whatsoever in trying to poke holes in a law you only understand through summary, since it is vanishingly unlikely that the holes that appear in the summary appear in the law. You have to read the actual text.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by fapjacks on Friday March 15, 2019 @02:54PM (#19402963)
Yes, the body of text in law is usually nearly burdensome with all the flowery language that makes it seem like they're trying to cover edge cases (and sardonic comment aside, I'll grant your assumption legislators want to cover as many edge cases as possible to prevent loopholes).

But at least in the United States, very many of the sentences in our laws end with weasel phrases like "or similar uses" and "or other software" and "or related activity", which is exactly where the problem arises, and where interested parties are inserting their own special loopholes. And sure, we hope that these loopholes get hammered out in the courts in our favor some years later -- that is, if there happens to be a good and willing samaritan that is more "invested" in taking the issue to court to try for an outcome which is favorable for the public versus one favorable to corporations or the police or the wealthy. But I'll just go ahead and continue supporting the option where the stupid law isn't created in the first place. Even if that means the police don't get their bogey man running a dark market.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by derefr on Friday March 15, 2019 @02:58PM (#19403002)
Many of these things that look like loopholes are actually invocations of standing case-law. I.e., lawyers are relying on an implicit layer of interpretations for these jargon phrases, that have already been "hammered out" in previous litigations.

(Admittedly, some are not. But law written by teams of legislators with centuries of combined legal experience—and passed through dozens of third-party QC checks + redraftings before being submitted for consideration—usually does not have this problem. Or, if it does, then usually it is an "out-of-context problem" nobody could see coming—an interpretation that wouldn't have even made sense to consider at time of drafting—and the first time anyone hits the relevant snag, we get some equally-good lawyers [e.g. the US Supreme Court, for US-Constitution out-of-context problems] in a room to re-interpret the law.)

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by fapjacks on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:28PM (#19403299)
The problem is that this isn't legislation about the proper manufacture of bicycles. This is exactly the kind of legislation that governments and the police are looking for, to cut into civil liberties and fortify their own positions of power. This is exactly the kind of law in which the NSA specifically went looking for loopholes, in order to conduct its dragnet warrantless surveillance of American citizens -- and then shielded its exploitation and abuse of the loophole using its secret rubber-stamp court system, effectively making it impossible for the loophole to be actually hammered out in the courts. When a proposed law bumps up against civil liberties and so clearly has the potential for abuse, it's not right to treat it with the same sort of irreverent attitude changes to the tax code or military spending are treated. This is one of those laws where people need to stop and think about what an authoritarian political outsider would do with this kind of power if they were to end up winning the right election. Generic language doesn't belong in laws like this.
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by derefr on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:34PM (#19403357)
My point was essentially that the people who draft laws are very, very smart—smart enough to allow for devious things they want to allow for like NSA warrantless surveillance, fully as a consequence of the text of the law (without that being obvious to your average lawyer), rather than by using "generic language" to provide a loophole to the law (which will be obvious to any pre-law student, and thus to the lawyers working for the opposition when the law is tabled.)

Again, read the text. Is there "generic language" or "a loophole" you could find with ten minutes' close scrutiny, that can't be explained away as "fully pinned down in meaning by case-law" by an average civil lawyer from that country? I doubt it. But might it somehow allow for the trampling of your civil liberties anyway, for reasons that only become clear when you know all the case-law required to macro-expand the law out to its fullest reading, and the totality of the body of law and statute of the relevant country, and the case-laws of their individual interactions? Maybe.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by dorgo on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:54PM (#19404204)
>people who draft laws are very, very smart

I think, I am smart when it comes to web and software, but I know little about electricity or cooking or 1000 other things. The people, you call smart, proposed to place stop-signs in the web - which sounds good and familiar to general public, but stupid to people who knows how web works. It is not enough to be smart.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by derefr on Friday March 15, 2019 @05:44PM (#19404600)
Maybe the word I should use is clever. The people who draft laws are very, very clever. This means that they know exactly how to manipulate language and the courts to get the effect they want.

Whether the effect they want is a sensible effect—that has nothing to do with whether they're clever.

A person with a genie in a bottle is normally just "doomed", because genies exploit loopholes. If the person is an experienced, clever lawyer, though, then they're not doomed; they're actually quite powerful. That doesn't mean they'll use their wishes to accomplish anything good for the world, or even good for them personally. They're still a regular, irrational human being with irrational desires—desires for status among their peers, for adoration and worship by the public, for renown and legacy. Etc.

I'm pretty sure that the people who proposed to "place stop-signs in the web" knew what they were doing, and knew what it would accomplish, and wanted to accomplish exactly what the law-as-drafted would accomplish if signed into law. "But it would just make everything worse!" Not for them. Not for their voter-base, at least from the perspective of voting for them again. Not for their lobbyists. Etc. It might make the Internet work objectively worse—but whoever said that politics was about making things better? Regulation mostly serves to make various processes more inefficient and to give those processes higher barriers-to-entry—in a way that makes them safer, or less prone to abuse, or whatever else. Politicians are always thinking in that mode: "something might get worse, but it's a compromise for everyone else—some good, some bad—and a win for me personally!"

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by gcb0 on Friday March 15, 2019 @02:17PM (#19402576)
is anything related to obstruction on that section? if yes, simply running the guard or exit node from any criminal investigation gets you jail time.
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by 8note on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:03PM (#19403041)
a judge, most likely
Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by thaumasiotes on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:17PM (#19403196)
> explicitly enumerated potential crimes like propagation of child pornography and money forgery

Clarification: "money forgery" would refer to counterfeiting, where I might print up a bunch of notes that look like $100 bills and spend them as if the government had printed them. "Money laundering" would refer to disguising the origins of some money, where I might report a pile of cash that came from illicit drug sales as cash receipts from the convenience store I conveniently (see) happen to own.

It's hard for me to imagine how you'd use Tor to forge money, although I guess it might be involved in your scheme to hack into your bank and increase the value of your account(s) there. What kind of money-related acts are enumerated?

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by gmueckl on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:17PM (#19403846)
The original draft lists counterfeiting (sorry, I used the wrong term originally) and "computer fraud" (loose translation) which means defrauding someone by technical means. Hacking a bank and altering account balances would be an example.

I think the list covers trading in counterfeit money as well. This is something that you can totally do over the internet.

But see the reply linking to the newer recommendation document. This one recommends to remove the restriction to a set list of crimes and is generally much looser.

Re:Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website by mr_toad on Friday March 15, 2019 @07:41PM (#19405378)
> only applies to a couple of explicitly enumerated potential crimes

Yeah right. That’s what they always say these laws will be used for, but they always end up being used for much broader purposes.