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Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:52PM (#19375251)
That's a surprisingly luddite response on a technology forum. Paper ballots have all their own set of security challenges. The North Carolina event that literally happened this year being a great such example. The Battle of Athens is another - a literal gunfight over who would hold possession over the ballot box.

Or how about all the issues over running out of paper ballots, long lines, etc. With electronic voting you could have everyone pre-enter their vote electronically & just "drop" it off by scanning their phone & getting a printed receipt they can use to confirm their vote was recorded correctly cryptographically.

It is possible to actually design secure electoral systems that actually protect the integrity of the election better (better anonymity, better traceability, better auditing, less error, more accessibility, etc, etc, etc). Convenience is also important; there are even ways you can potentially design the system to run on semi-trusted hardware which means lower cost & more polling stations, easier access etc. This rhetorical argument of making fun of the idea as "we can wait a couple of days for the results" completely ignores the actual advantages of such a system. It also completely ignores that a paper trail isn't mutually exclusive from electronic voting.

The challenge is in making sure the process for creating these systems isn't corrupted, especially by technologically illiterate legislative leaders who don't seem to place any of the most basic protections that experts recommend. They also don't have the balls to hold the voting companies to task for designing secure systems; somehow it's a non-issue for the same companies to do the obviously right things when it comes to their other customers (banks).

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by bloomer on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:05PM (#19375334)
You might be surprised that that "Luddite" response is actually the consensus opinion among experts familiar with electronic voting technology. See https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/04/securing_elec... and the links there in.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:39PM (#19375493)
I think it was just a misunderstanding on my part. It sounded like OP was advocating for a purely paper-driven system. That's why I said it's a Luddite position.

I think the misunderstanding on your part may have been similar meaning I'm advocating for entirely electronic.

To me electronic voting means a machine generating your ballot which avoids spoilage like hanging chads, incorrectly filled out ballots, etc (paper ballots should also be an option). Electronic voting means using counting machines to tabulate everything quickly while creating & retaining a paper trail for auditing. This is literally what Schneier is talking about: merging the advantages of both to mitigate the disadvantages of either.

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by jakeogh on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @02:35AM (#19376259)
Electronic voting is fundamentally incompatible elections. It's too easy to flip bits, and it always will be. "Hanging chads" etc are trivial issues (I would argue features) compared to the problems digital voting introduces.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:38AM (#19376539)
But literally a paper trail is generated that can be used to audit any problems. How is that not better? Your "hanging chad" issue being a feature makes it sound like you're OK with disenfranchising people you look down upon.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by jakeogh on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @07:41PM (#19385127)
"feature makes it sound like you're OK with disenfranchising people"

...if you assume the least useful interpretation of the comment. Could having a real physical object to examine be useful?

The paper as a "backup" is worse than backwards, it's an excuse to implement electronic voting, and since there is "no evidence" of problems, why would you need to examine the paper anyway?

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Thursday March 14, 2019 @03:29AM (#19387155)
You'd examine the paper to ensure integrity of the system. That's literally the point. Just like physical ballots are kept around.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding. The "no evidence" conclusion comes from auditing the paper ballot (as Schneier points out in that blog post above). You don't get to say "no evidence of problems" until the electronic & paper ballot agree. If there's disagreement you don't know which method is right & thus you have to hold a new election.

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by jakeogh on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:06PM (#19394798)
"You'd examine the paper to ensure integrity of the system."

Then just use paper.

Recounts (which is what your suggestion will get called in practice) require legal maneuvers which are fought by the winning side. Adding a electronic component to voting will never lower it's complexity.

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by rstuart4133 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @08:20PM (#19385340)
> You might be surprised that that "Luddite" response is actually the consensus opinion among experts familiar with electronic voting technology.

I don't know if it is the consensus opinion among experts, but it certainly wasn't the opinion Schneier expressed in that article.

Granted, he had strong words to say about the voting machines used in the US. And justifiably so. They are just plain horrible, they've been known to be horrible for years if not decades now and I find it hard to understand why the most sophisticated and wealthy places on the planet continue to use them. Particularly as we have known how to do it right for almost as long as they have been in use.

To Schneier's credit he does explain how electronic voting can be done securely in the article. Which makes your comment all the more puzzling.

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by egypturnash on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:54PM (#19375579)
Vote-by-mail solves lines, running out, etc. I’m gonna miss it when I leave Seattle.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by c22 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @01:39AM (#19376036)
It is super convenient and I love being able to do research at my leisure with the ballot right in front of me--helps keep me from being lazy and voting a party line. The only downside is having weeks to procrastinate about it has caused me to miss a couple votes since we started doing it this way.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:39AM (#19376543)
How is voting by mail any more secure or privacy preserving than voting digitally from your couch?
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by _Microft on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @05:08AM (#19376966)
It preserves privacy by splitting the vote and the identification forms into two different envelopes. The vote (and only the vote) goes into a second envelope that is placed into the return envelope along with the identifying information. After the information is verified, the envelope with the vote is then added to a ballot box (and not opened right away). The whole process also happens in the open, so everyone interested in either the process or not trusting it to be properly done can stand by and watch. At least here postal votes are processed like this.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by vlovich123 on Thursday March 14, 2019 @03:17AM (#19387109)
Sure. I'm still waiting for a description of how that preserves privacy? Until you seal the vote it's not privacy preserving. Literally the whole "privacy" aspect of the ballot is around making it impossible for anyone to observe your vote (& thus be able to punish you for not voting the "right" way). If you disagree, I'd like to bring North Carolina to your attention.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by c22 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @04:40AM (#19376820)
I don't know? I didn't make such a claim, but I'll speculate a little anyway. Vote by mail is accomplished by trusting the postal service which has a good track record of not losing or mangling my messages and, at least where I live, heavy legal deterrents against tampering. I imagine a digital solution could be as or more secure, but it may not be more trustworthy. Especially if the software running it is opaque or I don't understand the math involved.
Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by usrusr on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @06:57AM (#19377514)
Vote by mail is accomplished by accepting that a number of households/groups will cast a unanimous vote that would have been different votes if they happened in the enforced privacy of a voting booth.

That might be an understandable opinion if it is accepted as a conscious trade-off, but if you pretend that it will never happen you are just lying to yourself.

Re:Researchers find trapdoor in SwissVote election system by c22 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @02:24PM (#19381796)
Most of the people I know claim to just follow the voting guide in The Stranger. I imagine they'd take a copy with them to the booth too.