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Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by 40acres on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:12PM (#19374396)
This is why, to me, the entire debate about affirmative action at elite colleges is a complete red herring. The amount of kids, regardless of race, who can be considered "deserving" of a spot has been reduced more so by legacy admissions and these bribes than by any effort of individual institutions to even out racial or gender demographics.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jjoonathan on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:15PM (#19374805)
If you're building a picture in your head, you can check it against actual numbers here:

https://features.thecrimson.com/2015/freshman-survey/makeup/

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by 40acres on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:21PM (#19374835)
Thanks for the numbers. This confirms some suspicions but also refutes others: not a lot of legacy kids at Harvard, but their parents are still largely wealthy and mostly White / Asian.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by pmart123 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @12:45AM (#19375806)
I think a greater amount of legacy candidates typically apply early acceptance, which throws off the pure percentages. Presumably, candidates with large donor backing apply early, but schools typically give these applicants a bump for the inherent commitment.

I've recently thought another interesting study would be to look at admittance rates for NYC prep schools. I have friends right now paying crazy amounts of money for even pre-school. Part of the argument is the acceptance rates into elite colleges. I recently wondered how many of these kids are going because of large donations, which artificially inflates the stats for prospective parents who plan to get their kids into college on merit.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by LanceH on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:34PM (#19374554)
These universities don't have the prestige without the legacy admissions (and alumni donors).

There are tons of universities, but it's hard to say anyone "deserves" a spot over someone's family who helped build it.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by anyfoo on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:13PM (#19374793)
Then why do European universities, many of them very prestigious and much, much older than American ones, base their admission on grades and tests?

Given that in most European countries (I think, it'd definitely the case in Germany) tuition isn't a thing either, one can reasonably conclude that admission to an elite university is linked to academic prowess, at least to a higher degree than American universities.

I went to an elite university (can't deny that I'm a bit proud of that), and except maybe for the possible of highly limited stipendia, neither I nor my parents would have had any money to make that happen otherwise.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by spydum on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:23PM (#19374853)
Have to admit my American ignorance here, but outside of music schools I cannot think of any major elite universities outside of maybe oxford and Cambridge? I’m curious if Europeans could name a few Ivy League American universities? Maybe I’m the uncultured exception, but I don’t think most Americans even talk about foreign universities (I have no doubt to our own disadvantage)
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by anyfoo on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:44PM (#19374966)
You might not have heard about European universities (though maybe that's just because they tend to be named by city, so ETH Zürich, Paris etc. doesn't stick as a university name like "Harvard" and "Yale" do), but you probably have heard from people at those universities: Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, Werner Heisenberg, Nils Bohr, ...

I didn't pick contemporary names because the closer you get to today, the less likely you are to know such names unless you are specifically interested into their specific field. You can look them up, though.

No doubt American universities are not less prestigious, but to think that nothing of relevance happens outside of the US, well... You might have heard of CERN at least. ;)

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by ajmurmann on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:33PM (#19375462)
Don't underestimate the impact of US cultural imperialism. We've probably all seem shows or movies where some kid wants to get into Yale or Harvard. How many European movies do people see in the US?

I think another factor is that the admission system is different. I only know about Germany, but you don't have to apply in the same way at a university and your grades from school are what matters there isn't some additional test like GRE or SAT. So it plays less of a role culturally and has thus less opportunity to be a topic at all in shows and movies even if Americans were to drown in European media.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by spydum on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:55PM (#19375016)
In fact, when making this post - max planck institute and cern so on came to mind, but was not confident it was a schools vs research Institute ? Certainly there is no shortage of great minds from universities around the world, it’s just they don’t seem to nearly have the US BRAND awareness

* edit: on second thought i suppose I am not adequately equipped to talk about global brand awareness as it originally stated. Curious how other countries see collegiate prestige outside of their own or if US colleges have some extra factor?

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by adharmad on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @12:22AM (#19375711)
Imperial college, LSE, Groningen, Moscow Univ, Utrech
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jonny_eh on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:37PM (#19374565)
How is a school prestigious by allowing undeserving[1] rich kids in?

[1] In the sense that they're not academically or athletically at the top of the heap.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by sverige on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:02PM (#19374735)
I have to confess that I have never understood why athletics is considered necessary at academic institutions, so it is even less understandable why athletics is considered during admissions.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by ez76 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:07PM (#19374759)
It brings in alumni, who bring in money.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by roenxi on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:11PM (#19374774)
You can answer that question by playing semantics - copying from a dictionary, 'prestige' is having 'standing or estimation in the eyes of people'.

Most of the prestigious people I can name aren't prestigious because of their academic achievement, that is for sure - so it isn't obvious why an academic institution should be prestigious full stop. They all teach a similar syllabus, and most professors are remarkably talented. Harvard is prestigious because the students that go to Harvard are well connected, not because Harvard is imparting some superior secret sauce to its students. The selling point is the network of other people who are important, eg, the children of the sort of people who went to Harvard.

We don't give people standing or estimation from academic or athletic ability except in extreme edge cases (much more extreme than college admission). There is a strong correlation between intelligence and prestige, but that is because smart people make decisions that earn them prestige more than because academic ability is prestigious.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by mLuby on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:55PM (#19374691)
Because riches and prestige are often found in the same family, so a school or company with an aggregation of such families' progeny is able to reflect some of their shine.

Not saying it's a morally correct, but that's 's how (American) society works. We aren't good at predicting a child's success so we fall back on historical (familial) data.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by anyfoo on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:25PM (#19374865)
I really don't get how that can reasonably be considered a better predictor of a successful university degree than previous grades and application tests, without some serious mental gymnastics.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by mLuby on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:44PM (#19375205)
It's not that hard. Assume Richie Rich and Freckles Friendly are innately equally good students.

Freckles almost certainly has additional stressors in his life, since he maintains his scholarship(s), works outside of class, frets over his student loans, and has to be careful how he spends what little cash he has.

In contrast, Richie has a pretty carefree existence which he likely spends developing relationships with other rich kids. He can study if he needs to, pay for private tutors, etc.

Plus, from the perspective of University The Business™, Richie is more likely to inherit wealth and business opportunities that make him more likely to donate to the school in the future; he's a better investment than Freckles.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by anyfoo on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:54PM (#19382987)
> Freckles almost certainly has additional stressors in his life, since he maintains his scholarship(s), works outside of class, frets over his student loans, and has to be careful how he spends what little cash he has.

Right. But that's part of the point, is it not? Those factors were almost a non-issue for me in Germany. Having no tuition, I had to work part-time to pay for rent, food, and recreational activities, but that wasn't nearly stressful or time consuming enough to impact my studies (or even my social life).

As such, "student loans" are also not really a thing in Germany. I did take a loan of a few thousand Euros towards the end of my studies, in order to be able to focus on my degree without a job and still have a roof over my head, but I was able to repay all of it very quickly as soon as I entered the workforce.

Meaning, those disadvantages for non-affluent people at ivy league universities are entirely self-created, and very likely have the net effect of promoting students who are innately worse but financially better off to success.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by ajmurmann on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:36PM (#19375480)
A huge value of attending writ elite US universities lies in the network you get to build. While it's nice to have future Nobell Price laureates in your network it's also nice to have heirs to bring late family fortunes that also might already bring very good family connections to the table.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by exolymph on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:51PM (#19374669)
"The daughter of [so-and-so famous person] attends here" is a huge draw. Think of Harvard and its ilk as finishing schools and networking groups.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by brightball on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:01PM (#19374730)
FWIW, he did say legacy, specifically.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by cortesoft on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:47PM (#19374981)
Why would what someone’s family did change anything about if a student deserves anything?
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by NavyNuke on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:30PM (#19374524)
That is why it stings for poor or working class Asians and non-Jewish Whites...you don't get the affirmative action or legacy leg up...
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by Rebelgecko on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:44PM (#19374623)
How do Jews get a leg up from affirmative action and legacies when the application doesn't ask for your religion (any more) and there were quotas in the past to limit the number of Jewish students?
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by richardhod on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @05:28AM (#19377067)
To be fair, whether there is affirmative action or bias or not, characteristic names give a lot away for this religious-ethnic group, as with other groups.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jdoliner on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:34PM (#19374548)
I could be wrong, but I don't think Jews get much of an affirmative action boost either.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by normalperson on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:38PM (#19374578)
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by pfisch on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:12PM (#19374785)
This is about anti-Jewish discrimination specifically. This is pro meritocracy. Not affirmative action.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by richardhod on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:35PM (#19374924)
That article on first reading appears to be a balanced and well-argued article, but it concerns me that other articles on that site appear to be literally concerned with Holocaust denial and are generally israel-obsessed; alongside other far right wing and outlandish conspiracy theories. Therefore I'm sceptical and would wish to fact check further.

See https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Unz_Review

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jdoliner on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:45PM (#19374627)
Good link, thank you.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jonny_eh on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:39PM (#19374589)
I suspect you've never heard of the "Jewish Quota" that capped the number of Jews allowed in various schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by NavyNuke on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:42PM (#19374608)
I have heard of that but what does that have to do with anything now?

It isn't an active policy of any of Ivy League schools anymore ..

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by pfisch on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:15PM (#19374806)
Nor is affirmative action for Jews but you brought that up.
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jachee on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:32PM (#19374538)
Oi. What's with the antisemitism?
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by NavyNuke on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:36PM (#19374562)
Uh...that wasn't antisemetic...when talking about Ivy league representation, Jews are disproportionately represented which is why I distinguished between "Jewish Whites" and Non-Jewish Whites...
Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by jachee on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:41PM (#19374603)
Bigger question: Why bring race up at all, then? Class has demonstrably larger effect.

The 1% are very disproportionately represented in the Ivy League, too.

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by _red on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:14PM (#19374803)
A couple of interesting questions:

1. Is being Jewish a race or a religion?

2. Being Jewish is also strongly correlated to class. 44% of Jews earn 100K+. Thats compared to ~20% for Christian, 19% Catholic, 20% Islam. (Interestingly Hindus are close at 36%).

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/income-dis...

Re:Bribes to Get into Yale and Stanford? What Else Is New? by mikemotherwell on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:01PM (#19374732)
Is that how the system works? I'm not American, but it seems like race does get factored in. Or am I just sorely mistaken?