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Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by patio11 on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @06:01AM (#1937034)
I am not sanguine on the idea, but the marketing for the idea is beyond terrible. The IDL is a leaky abstraction because the most salient features of drivers licenses are a) you have to apply to the government to get one, b) the government can take yours away with as much ease as they can do anything else, and c) if you lose your license, you will be denied the ability to use one or more critical goods/services (driving).

That is what your mother thinks of when she hears Driver's License. Why on earth would that be the branding you pick for OpenID or federated authentication? You are practically trolling your own idea at that point!

Observe the kinds of things people are going to say about any federated identity scheme which you call a License:

"Jeff Atwood thinks the government should be able to take away your Facebook account! He's fascist!" "I didn't say that!"

"Jeff Atwood thinks your mom shouldn't be allowed on the Internet until she stops calling it 'the Googles'! He's an elitist bastard!" "I didn't say that!"

"Jeff Atwood thinks that if you get kicked off a WoW server you should lose your Gmail account. He's in bed with corporate interests!" "I didn't say that!"

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by wazoox on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @07:26AM (#1937155)
That, and the concept of the driver's license as the definitive ID document is quasi exclusively and strongly connoted as a funny US peculiarity.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by arethuza on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @09:11AM (#1937345)
I'm in the UK and my driver's license is the only form of "official" ID I normally carry.

Much to my delight, we canceled the silly project to issue government ID cards.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by wazoox on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @01:36PM (#1938140)
Should we really consider how it's done in a country where people drive on the wrong side of the road? :)
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rbanffy on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:25AM (#1937578)
Who issued your driver's license?
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by arethuza on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:37AM (#1937619)
But not everyone had a drivers license or a passport - so they wanted everyone to have a separate ID card. Generally, having a formal ID has only been required in the UK during dire emergencies (i.e. World Wars) and contrary to what the government of the time thought we are not in the middle of such a crisis.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by kleiba on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @03:48PM (#1938500)
Every German older than 16 is required by law to have an ID card or passport. As of November 2010, ID cards carry RFID chips with the same data that's written on the card plus an optional fingerprint. Passports have had the chip for a while already, but the fingerprint is mandatory there. Driver's licenses are not considered a valid means of identification outside traffic.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by masklinn on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @04:38PM (#1938619)
Likewise in France, except as far as I know there are no rfid chips in the national id card (yet anyway). And in belgium (where the ID card is the size of a credit card and has a small chip, I don't know if it has an RFID chip)
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rbanffy on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @01:56PM (#1938203)
The point is not the government issuing you an ID. The problem comes when it require you to carry it at all times.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by robryan on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @06:04PM (#1938790)
In Australia it would be a major hassle to not carry around a drivers license, not all the time but things always come up where you need ID and a drivers license usually covers that.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rmc on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:29AM (#1937595)
The UK Government
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by masklinn on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @04:36PM (#1938608)
In France, the driver's license isn't even allowed as an ID, passport or ID card yes, license no.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by StavrosK on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:01PM (#1939004)
Same in Greece, I don't know anyone who uses their driver's license as an ID. I'm not sure if it's disallowed explicitly, but nobody does it.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by dagw on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @09:33AM (#1937405)
I'd estimate that about half the people I know in Sweden and in Norway, under 35, don't actually have a drivers license. And of those half again have no real intention of getting one.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by lmkg on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @12:22PM (#1937929)
Personally, the idea I have in my mind of a (US) driver's license is a universally-accepted form of ID that anyone can get. The facts that it has a test, or that it can be revoked, or that some people don't have one, don't actually register in my head until someone points it out. If it weren't in the name, I wouldn't even connect it with driving. Furthermore, it's the only abstraction I have in my head for a universal ID. Passport's aren't universal (at least in the US) because they're bigger and therefore less convenient, and international travel is somewhat rare. We don't have a universal government-issued ID that's just an ID, so the idea of a national ID card sounds scary and government-intrusive to me. A driver's license is literally the most innocuous and least threatening analogy to make. Until you point out the ways in which it doesn't work the way I think it works.

When most people think of driver's licenses, do they really think government certification, or do they think universal ID? I would be honestly interested in the answer.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by alextgordon on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @03:49PM (#1938502)
Personally, the idea I have in my mind of a (US) driver's license is a universally-accepted form of ID that anyone can get.

Don't you have to take a test to obtain a licence? Here in the UK the test is relatively difficult and expensive, so not everybody has a licence. Passports are much cheaper, easier to obtain and don't come with age limits, so they are a more universal form of ID (though they are also bulky and hardly something you would carry around on you).

When most people think of driver's licenses, do they really think government certification, or do they think universal ID? I would be honestly interested in the answer.

When I think of driver's licences, I think of driving a car. Universal ID doesn't occur.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by masklinn on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @04:37PM (#1938615)
See his next phrase.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by URSpider94 on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @04:05PM (#1938545)
I agree with you that a driver's license is more a form of ID than a public safety credential, if you live in the USA.

Why?

-- You have to take a test to get it, but you do that when you are 16 or 17, and never again. In most states, the test is ridiculously easy.

-- In an average year, you probably use it hundreds of times for its ID value (to buy beer at the grocery store or drinks at a bar, to cash a check, to check in for an airline flight), and (hopefully) zero times for the public safety function (showing it to a police officer after being pulled over).

-- Outside of NYC, the fraction of people over the legal driving age who don't have a license has to be less than 10%

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by drdaeman on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:11AM (#1937217)
I believe the term "license" itself is completely inappropriate for personal identities.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rmc on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:00AM (#1937196)
Perhaps a more accurate metaphore would be "Internet Passport". Government's can't take it away and it has no real entitlements. However Jeff Atwood is from the USA which has a strangley low number of passport holders. Perhaps they are used to using a driving licence instead of passport as general ID.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by brazzy on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:37AM (#1937253)
Perhaps they are used to using a driving licence instead of passport as general ID.

No perhaps about it. It seems to the average American, the word "drivers license" evokes "proof of identity" first and "proof of ability to drive a car" second, because they're using theirs as a general ID more often than for its original purpose.

It gets even funnier when American companies operate abroad and require "two photo IDs" in countries where everyone has a government-provided ID card.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by brown9-2 on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:36AM (#1937616)
It seems to the average American, the word "drivers license" evokes "proof of identity" first and "proof of ability to drive a car" second, because they're using theirs as a general ID more often than for its original purpose.

This is because the idea of a National ID Card is for some strange reason (strange to this American, I mean) seen as an evil thing by the general public here.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by akmiller on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @01:32PM (#1938128)
What the hell is a social security card if not a national ID card. Unique number assigned to each american citizen and you are forced to have it.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by billpaetzke on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @01:51PM (#1938186)
I (and most others that I know) don't carry a social security card. There's virtually no need for it in daily life. If you even know where yours is, it's probably sitting next to your birth certificate in a drawer.

But we all know our number by memory.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by epochwolf on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @04:58PM (#1938662)
> But we all know our number by memory.

I don't. And I use my passport as an ID when two forms of ID is required.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by eftpotrm on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @09:11AM (#1937347)
There's enough circumstances where you can be forced to surrender passports though, and certainly historically they weren't automatically available. I understand British passports were, in the late 19th Century, only available to people who the foreign secretary personally knew or was linked very closely to, with the net effect that many British instead obtained French passports because they didn't require you to be a French national, were easier to get hold of and worked equally well.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by arethuza on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @12:06PM (#1937868)
I thought I could remember reading somewhere that passports weren't used that much during Victorian times - this article seems to explain why:

http://www.wanderlust.co.uk/magazine/articles/destinations/a...

Apparently rail travel made the whole process of issuing and checking passports a bit of a pain so most countries just gave up - they didn't become common again until 1914.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by anamax on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @09:44AM (#1937455)
> However Jeff Atwood is from the USA which has a strangley low number of passport holders.

It's not strangely low; Americans can travel to far more than the equivalent of the EU without one. (We can go to all 50 plus Canada and Mexico.)

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by simonsarris on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:25AM (#1937582)
I am under the impression that we can no longer go to Canada without a passport.

:(

Edit: Since June 2009.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by WildUtah on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @11:53AM (#1937827)
You can't go to Mexico without a passport either. You can't come back without one, anyway.

The US Gov does now issue passport cards which are a form of national ID card that allows citizens back in at international LAND borders. You should ask for one when you apply for your passport; they're nice to carry in your pocket when you're abroad and the full passport is safely locked away.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by dctoedt on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @11:49AM (#1937817)
If memory serves, if you don't have a passport you can go to Mexico, you just can't get back into the U.S.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rbanffy on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @10:29AM (#1937593)
This notion of equivalence is a very interesting concept.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by anamax on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @03:20PM (#1938421)
The US is is geographically larger than Europe, has a comparable number of people, and is arguably as diverse.

Yes, it looks like we speak the same language, but the diversity in "American" is at least as broad as the difference between the middle of "American" and "received English". (Yes, I'm aware that there's a lot of diversity in UK English.)

Yes, Americans mostly watch the same TV, but our exports and castoffs are not unknown in Europe.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by rmc on Friday November 26, 2010 @04:20AM (#1941987)
America is not as lingusitically diverse as Europe. The difference between 2 American english accents might be similar to the difference between 2 English accents, but there are dozens of languages in europe. You're comparing the whole of the US to one part of EU.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by ZoFreX on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:13AM (#1937221)
I imagine this is why Microsoft's Live ID was originally called Passport.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by stoney on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @03:47PM (#1938493)
I think the point is that few people carry their passport around with them on a day to day basis even in countries where they are very common.

I've lived in the UK and Oz and in both countries my drivers license stays in my wallet ready for when an over eager bouncer to ask me to prove my age or for when I sign up to a new video store on a whim. My passport pretty much stays at home unless I'm going to the airport.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by jaywalker on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:07AM (#1937210)
Why we can't just call it "Internet Identity?"
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by nightshowerer on Saturday November 27, 2010 @04:15PM (#1945896)
Didn't Microsoft have a product by that name? :)
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by drats on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @06:36AM (#1937091)
I agree he's not selling it properly, but I would also say it's not actually that different to everything coming back to my email inbox and being remembered by my browser either. For me it's not a problem, perhaps for admins it is, which reminds me of the incessant caterwauling we used to have about "the spam problem" (which was often a mask for the micropayments movement). And people should reach for their gun when they hear people blabbering about ID centralisation, that's a good reaction. And considering there is a happy-go-lucky Belgian linking it to the government in the comments, I'd say they are right in some sense, it will embolden those who want the government to control everything on the Internet.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by grandpa on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @08:16AM (#1937226)
And d) you have to take a test to get one.
Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by drdaeman on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @09:39AM (#1937431)
If that's the case, our tech support team (I work for an ISP) would wholeheartedly welcome those Internet User's Licenses.

Obviously, just kidding.

Re:Coding Horror: Your Internet Driver's License by mcantor on Wednesday November 24, 2010 @11:01AM (#1937684)
FTA: Now, I don't literally mean a driver's license. I'm using this term figuratively to mean online credentials that I can re-use in more than one place on the internet.