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Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by neokantian on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:22PM (#19335059)
If you do not like the sharing economy, then do not participate in it. "Other people should not be doing this, and should not be doing that, ..." is one bridge too far. For heaven's sake, who the hell are you, to tell other people what to do?
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by chongli on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:39PM (#19335140)
When someone decides to turn their apartment until a hotel room, it affects all of their neighbours. They can't then decide not to participate in the sharing economy, it is thrust upon them unwillingly.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by KorematsuFred on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:33AM (#19335374)
Then those people should amend HOA rules or move to some other place where they can sign a contract of no AirBnB. If the AirBnB hosts causes an actual loss make him pay for it.

At any rate the armchair philosophers should not advice others on what should be allowed or not.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by sushid on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:27AM (#19335566)
How is complaining about a neighbor being an "armchair philosopher"? I hope the irony of your statement is not lost in you.

Apartment complexes don't have HOAs and sometimes it can be a huge hassle to contact your landlord to fix the sink, much less to investigate and shut down your neighbor's illegal Airbnb operation.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by antidesitter on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:44AM (#19335400)
That’s up to neighborhood associations and their contractual arrangements.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by shard972 on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:29AM (#19335351)
The obvious solution here is to then share your apartment and go live in your nicer house.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by PostOnce on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:38PM (#19335131)
Participation will become non-optional. When one company, or tycoon, or whatever, owns everything, renting will no longer be optional.

It's not hard to imagine a world in which most software is SaaS.

It's also not hard to imagine a world in which the car company decides to stop selling and start renting.

Arcade game manufacturers realized early on that it's stupid to sell a machine that makes $30K for $2.5K, so they started opening arcades. Nolan Bushnell went and made Chuck E. Cheese, and Taito was doing the same thing. Sega does it in Japan still.

I know a guy who lives on a yacht with his family, he finances trips via the dozen or so rental houses he owns. The people renting from him may never buy a house, given that building new ones here is becoming hardly possible due to zoning.

So yeah, good luck opting out when nothing is for sale anymore.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by neokantian on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:57PM (#19335209)
Well, no, the sky is not falling.

Some people need a world in which they have exactly one employer, as well as a fixed bi-weekly salary, dropped into their bank account, because that is how they want to live. Good for them!

I like to scavenge my surroundings for opportunities, and make money from stuff that occasionally happens to drop from a tree. Once in a while, I meet people who like to do a deal with me. I sell. I buy. I trade. I just love it. I am simply NOT interested in a boring world of bi-weekly wages paid into a bank account.

I do not consider tycoons to be a threat. It is the little, petty SJW bureaucrats that take too much of an interest in other people's business who are the problem.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by wallace_f on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:15AM (#19335515)
>The people renting from him may never buy a house, given that building new ones here is becoming hardly possible due to zoning

You nailed the problem, actually. Stop giving authoritarians too much power to tell us what economic activity we can do. Stop the endless mess of subsidies which make honest business unprofitavle. Your argument supports the person you disagreed with.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by anovikov on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:44PM (#19335159)
Well it must be represented by one simple thing: rental yields. What is the rental yield for a typical property in your place? If it's going way up, you can easily afford buying instead of renting so you don't have that problem (at a rental yield of about 6% or so, a mortgage becomes smaller than the rent). If it's going way low, it's a stupid idea to buy and owning will probably never pay for itself and lose money long term. I know a lot of places where rental yield is under 2%. Why would anyone buy there? (explanation is usually: to park dirty money).

And it's not due to zoning. Zoning exists so that load of excess people does not make a neighborhood unlivable, or there will be too much traffic and getting to and from job becomes impossible.

Wanna fight it? Push employers to let people work remotely. It's not possible for low paying jobs e.g. waiters, but these don't buy or rent anything anyway, for most professions where people have a shot of getting into a real estate market, there is such option. Let people work remotely and suddenly you'll realize there is a shitload of almost free real estate around.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by PostOnce on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:50PM (#19335178)
Well, that assumes someone wants to sell a house, or that you're allowed to build a new one. Neither of those may be the case.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by DangitBobby on Friday March 08, 2019 @02:05AM (#19335711)
Or that you can afford to save for a down payment on top of current rent and other living expenses.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by anovikov on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:00AM (#19335222)
Well there's always someone wanting. There is always a real estate market, always. In absolutely all places you can buy or rent. If people find ways to make living in a particular place less important (say by enabling remote work), things will become easier.

Also well, the very small fraction of homeowners who have a privilege of owning these places have effectively won a lottery. They naturally have to protect their winnings. Basically for every one of them there is a 1000 or more of people who own place out of a highly sought-after area like the Valley where his real estate does not appreciate and brings no rent. If you take the averages, all-accounted yields from real estate are laughable and way under the yields from a stock market.

Can we say that someone who bought stock that skyrocketed 1000x, 20 years ago, has to be penalized for it, or be forced to sell? It is either a very smart insight (or inside, but in case of stock it's way way way more probable than in case of real estate), or just blind luck. It doesn't mean same trick is reproducible at any given moment if you have money to buy, the mathematical expectation of profit you will make buying anywhere you could pick at all, is quite low and you better go to a stock market.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by ggm on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:11AM (#19335502)
For heaven's sake, who the hell are you, to tell other people what to do?

I'm a voting tax-payer: thats how government of the people, by the people works. We pay the taxes so that our representatives stop this kind of "shitting in the commons" nonsense. The ubers and airbnb are avoiding paying community costs, avoiding compliance with safety laws, avoiding all kinds of things, while simultaneously exporting the profit into other peoples hands, by giving some to individuals at a cost to everyone else in the peaceful enjoyment of their own property.

Telling people what to do is what government is all about.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by neokantian on Friday March 08, 2019 @02:33AM (#19335829)
"Other people must to do this. Other people must do that." Forcing other people is a form of spam, which naturally leads to anti-spam measures. Your form of spam will work until it doesn't anymore. Seriously, I do not care about your voting circus. There will always come a point at which you will have to prove that you are willing to risk your life and die for what you believe in.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by cwyers on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:58PM (#19335217)
Here's the thing. Economic transactions can have externalities -- costs to someone not a party to the transaction that are not reflected in the cost of the good or service in the transaction. The "sharing economy" has loads of externalities. It's like saying, if you don't like the bonfire, don't participate to it, when you've set the fire downwind of someone and there's smoke blowing in their tent.
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Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by thomasfortes on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:50AM (#19335420)
Ignoring the terrible taste of your argument for the sake of keeping it civil...

Do you really think that everyone should simply bend to the externalities that you generate?

You really think that you could drop toxic waste on a river that goes through your property and no one can complain when the river dies because you are more important that the victims of your externalities?

Because it is a terrible argument that does not seem to have any basis on how the real world operates.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by cwyers on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:43AM (#19335399)
That's not an externality. And honestly, your chosen example is rather unpleasant.

An externality is something like "cigarettes produce smoke that contains a lot of carcinogens, and therefore cigarette smoking can contribute to the poor health of people who are nearby even if they do not choose to smoke themselves."

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by antidesitter on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:56AM (#19335450)
Every industry has externalities, both positive and negative. Your comment is basically vacuous.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by cwyers on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:40AM (#19335618)
Yes, every industry has externalities. They exist. They're basic Econ 101 stuff. Which is why it's overly simplistic to say "nobody else should interfere in a transaction between two people." There's externalities, there's market failure, there's the tragedy of the commons. A belief in markets ought to be paired with an understanding of them.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by nnnnnande on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:29AM (#19335576)
Yes, so why not do something about the negative ones?
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by MereInterest on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:26PM (#19335078)
Yeah, how dare we insist that people be paid a living wage! And health insurance is only for employees, not employees-in-everything-but-name!
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by neokantian on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:37PM (#19335124)
I am free to make the deals that I want, regardless of what they include or don't include. Why would I need you to protect me from myself? Why do you want to micromanage other people's lives? Is your own life not interesting enough already?
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by zanny on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:26AM (#19335338)
Because the price you offer for your time influences the perception of the value of time for everyone around you.

Its why minimum wage exists at all. Without it, the most desperate depress wages to the absolute edge of starvation and destitution. It is not, and has never been, and never will be an answer to poverty, but it is a promise by the government that your time can never be valued at less than an absolute floor they set.

Because nature and reality are cruel. For many people, in many circumstances, their time is practically worthless. Minimum wage has a carrying effect on the economic baseline - by having minimum wage workers, there exists industry to meet their extraordinarily limited means. Its the old Ford adage that he need pay his workers enough to afford his cars lest he have no market to sell to.

This matters to state level actors the same way opiates in the US matter. If isolated, rare, instances of irrationality reign and someone ends up dead from a drug overdose that is a manageable risk for the freedom granted in return. But when millions are addicted, tens of thousands are dead, and whole communities are collapsing from it the individual choices that led people to drug addiction are a consequence to the whole of society.

It doesn't even need be in that large a scale. If your brother is a drunk he will by nature he less productive and stable in his life, more prone to disease and illness, and often fall upon his family for support because he cannot support himself due to his own choices. You can then of course choose to not help him, but for those that do their now deflated resources from supporting their drunk brother depress their participation in markets they would have had more voice in. It takes only one bad apple to ruin a family, a bushel to destroy a community, and an orchard can ravage whole counties.

Its why anyone contemplating suicide is told its a selfish way out. Because you make the choice, but everyone else gets to deal with the consequences. Almost nothing you do is wholly restricted to yourself alone - everything has consequences, and society at all is built on a foundation of trading personal liberty for freedom from others liberties.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by wallace_f on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:21AM (#19335541)
Why cant we just give everyone a social dividend and then be done with it?

We already create enough in taxation and economic deadloss in market inefficiencies to finance nearly 10k/year to every citizen.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by zanny on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:08AM (#19338758)
The why right now, at least in the US, is that federal politicians are beholden the monied interests that lobby and fund their reelection campaigns, not to the constituents. So policy is written in their interests, which doesn't require a social dividend because all involved parties are already wealthy.

Even if you solved the money in politics problem (which is hard) you still have the issue of a substantial portion of the US congress being elected in uncontested lifelong seats where the citizens have been thoroughly indoctrinated enough into either major parties ideology that they never consider voting for anyone but their incumbent. As long as politicians can feel their seat is guaranteed representing their own interests rather than those of their electors becomes the norm.

So to even begin having a conversation about social dividends you need to radically revamp American elections to incentivize the legislature to represent their constituents. Which requires competitive, representative elections (which means you cannot be using first past the post everywhere) and substantially diluted power and influence so that buying influence over the legislature is less trivial (which almost always means substantially more seats in US congress to make buying a majority of seats more difficult).

Which is by nature a constitutional amendment, which the congress itself would never ratify because it would end their gravy train of private influence and wealth so many currently enjoy. So you need it to come from the states, but the state governments are often just as corrupt and out of the control of the citizenry, if not moreso for their lack of publicity and presence in conversation, so you would need to figure out how to fix them first.

Its a crazy massive expansive problem Larry Lessig was campaigning on in 2016, and Andrew Yang could learn a thing or two from before having pie in the sky conceptions of being able to institute UBI given the structure of the present US federal government.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by username223 on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:42AM (#19337381)
The thirteenth amendment exists for a reason, and as a "neo-Kantian," you should be into treating rational/human beings as ends in themselves. A country where you're allowed to sell yourself into slavery or indenture is one I can't support. So there are limits on what "deals" you can make.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:14AM (#19335284)
Because your life impacts mine.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19335217

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by antidesitter on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:03AM (#19335475)
Virtually everything you do impacts people around you. So can you be more specific?
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by geezerjay on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:27AM (#19335344)
> Yeah, how dare we insist that people be paid a living wage! And health insurance is only for employees, not employees-in-everything-but-name!

You're doing no such thing. You're actually preaching that people with less opportunities than you should be left with even less options because your paternalist view of them makes you feel you're entitled to tell others how they can and cannot do to earn a living.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by chillacy on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:38PM (#19335136)
You can land a job as an employee with no fixed hours, no manager, where you bring your own equipment, etc? Seems closer to contractors.

I think it would have been smart if Uber let drivers set their own prices, then they'd be more akin to Amazon sellers, who feel more independent (but get screwed in other ways).

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by MereInterest on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:01AM (#19335233)
Where all the money goes to Uber, and is then distributed to the drivers? Where drivers are forbidden from subcontracting? Where drivers are forbidden from establishing regular routes for repeat customers? Those sound more like employees than contractors.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by geezerjay on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:33AM (#19335370)
Visa or paypal isn't suddenly everyone's employer just because they process payments, and at least in some jurisdictions drivers can and do subcontract. In fact, there are licensed car rental companies that also provide services through Uber.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by joejerryronnie on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:19AM (#19335306)
See, I have a problem with this line of thought. You are not an employee of these companies if you can sign up through an app, choose how much or little you want to work, and have no boss. If you want the living wage, health insurance, and employee perks then apply for an actual job and go through the full interview process like the rest of us. This mentality of “I want everything you have but I don’t want to actually put the time and effort in to get it” is very frustrating.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by nnnnnande on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:34AM (#19335377)
> This mentality of “I want everything you have but I don’t want to actually put the time and effort in to get it” is very frustrating.

How do you know that these people haven't already put time and effort into trying to get an "actual job"? It would seem to me that the free market does not serve everyone with equal economic opportunity and that the world economy is more nuanced than what your average libertarian would like you to believe.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by joejerryronnie on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:53AM (#19335436)
We’re at historically low levels of unemployment. There’s work out there if you want it. Sure, based on your skills and experience, you may not find a job which supports the lifestyle you want or the rent where you want to live, but then you reset your expectations and move to a place with a lower COL.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by nnnnnande on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:26AM (#19335560)
You're right, but even that is more nuanced; for instance, the US unemployment rate is based on a survey that counts any paid work during the survey week as employment.

I'm not in the US myself, but I think for the HN crowd in general moving to someplace else isn't a problem as we have the financial means as well as the independence. Other social groups might be more dependent on the social support around them (family, friends and maybe government). For them, moving to another place would be akin to resetting everything and starting a new life, with all the associated risk.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by joejerryronnie on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:32AM (#19335583)
You’re right that moving to a new location isn’t as trivial as my post would suggest, especially if you’re relying on your family for childcare. But it is still an option that people have been forced to consider throughout history.
Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by lazyasciiart on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:40AM (#19335393)
> "Other people should not be doing this, and should not be doing that, ..." is one bridge too far.

Wait til you hear about criminal law!

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:57AM (#19335456)
It's not that simple and I think that should be abundantly clear. People buying up properties and renting them on Airbnb has wider impact than only to the people that choose to actively participate or don't. And it affects not only the units in that specific building, but the community and property surrounding it.

More cars on the road, encouraged by the incentives of Uber/Lyft, affect pollution, road congestion, and public health.

Re:The sharing economy was always a scam by tasty_freeze on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:04AM (#19335242)
Aren't you telling him what to do?