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Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by sombremesa on Monday February 18, 2019 @01:57PM (#19193206)
India is the same way, no sane person should invest there. They sweetened the pot for the tech sector and then pulled out the rug from under them recently. Wasn't unexpected for anyone who understands Indian politics, but the foreign investors really got screwed.

As for locals, greasing palms is the only way to get a business going. Or anything done, really.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by victor106 on Monday February 18, 2019 @03:49PM (#19194305)
IMHO Very very long term India will do well.

In the short to medium term however investing in India is extremely risky. The primary reason is lack of trust and dishonesty at a fundamental level.

Law enforcement and judiciary are a joke. I heard it’s not uncommon for court cases to take 20-30 years. The institutions that promote a trustworthy transactions are nearly absent or ineffective.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by davchana on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:26PM (#19195062)
Most of the affected people would love 20 years. The saying goes that son will get to hear the verdict in case his father filed.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by xtracto on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:08PM (#19194924)
Mexican here... I could swear you were describing Mexico in your comment.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by dystopianqt on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:16PM (#19203416)
Yes it takes 20 yeas But mainly in cases that involve various complications and which have been in lower courts for two long.

For busuinesses there are many tribunals which genrally resolve matters on fast track basis , and if some case has legal complications there are fast track courts instituted for the same

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by hiyer on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:12PM (#19196537)
In terms of greasing palms, the USA is no different, except that it's legal there. For example, in India it's illegal for a company to pay a political party for favours; so they pay bribes. In USA this is just called lobbying and it's perfectly legal.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by Throwawayzoink on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:22PM (#19205488)
In India, a politicial party can legally and anonymously give money to a political party.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by Consultant32452 on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:31PM (#19193546)
I'm not doubting what you said, but I'm genuinely curious/ignorant. What did Indian gov't do to pull the rug out from foreign tech investors?
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by AareyBaba on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:54PM (#19193770)
India has realized that handing over its enormous market to foreign companies not only stifles local business but is a national security issue. Facebook, Google, Visa, Mastercard all have detailed info on Indian nationals, control communication (WhatsApp, WeChat) and can manipulate the retail market (Amazon, Walmart). So they are imposing restrictions similar to the EU. Data has to remain on local servers. They have created an alternative financial card payment network (National Payments Corporation of India) to challenge Visa and Mastercard. The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by ianai on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:45PM (#19195176)
That sounds more like an evolutionary step than a serious market debasement. Arguably, the actions of the multinational corporations are debasing.

Maybe a country controlling the internetworked currency exchanges of their currency should be a 21st century equivalent to minting currency.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by BigChiefSmokem on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:56PM (#19195242)
Also that last line, "The government wants the ability to throttle communication when necessary (see Pulwama terrorist attack )" is exactly the kind of slippery slope that no democracy should head down.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by balladeer on Monday February 18, 2019 @09:45PM (#19196253)
I, by no means, support the Govt's intention to control communication and snoop but India is a country unlike any other - it has its own very unique set of problems sometimes engendered by its own diversity. It feels sad to say this but at times, at places here shutting down the entire communication system in a particular state of region is the only way of preventing mass unrests and riots which almost always result in too many civilian deaths and unspeakable loss of property. I wish there was a better way but there isn't yet. Lack of proper education plays a large role, yes.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by dpacmittal on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:12PM (#19196534)
Finally a sane voice instead of your usual "they took mah freedom of speech".

I remember when the Nepal's royal family was massacred. We had all our telephone connections cut for 5 days with full blown curfews. They were necessary to stop riots, rumor mongering, and knee jerk reaction of people to the horrible news.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by ianai on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:14PM (#19195353)
Agreed, that’s ridiculous. Though I can see a carve out being made for first responders. But I don’t think the one requires the other.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by intended on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:11AM (#19197927)
India and the rest of the world will face and make even worse decisions in the future.

I really don't see an argument that suggests that China style Censorship is not coming for everyone.

Here are my facts and inferences:

1) Data/content is without inherent Good/Evil value. A sentence "Jihad!" is only terror affiliated if it shows up in a specific context. It could be part of a sarcastic comment for all you know.

2) This context sensitivity creates means that you can rarely identify what is actually dangerous speech given raw data. You need contextual information (person speaking it, lists of people associated with terror networks etc.)

3) Virality - People in India for example, are busy sharing videos of child abductions which are leading to lynchings of innocents in villages. Except those videos are concoted out of Mexican gang videos, health and safety videos, and frames from other countries.

There is no way to stop this, without breaking past the "intent" barrier inherent to all information.

4) Better understanding of human neural weak spots. We are constantly learning to hack human brains - gamification, loot boxes, attention sucking websites, "Addictive UI/UX". We are simply driven by business need to evolve firms and practices that are best able to survive in the substrate that businesses operate in - which is Humanity. Sex sells was true years ago, today we can do Sex sells in a personalized and automated manner to everyone with a cell phone.

Given these basic factors, virality, impossibility to identify intent, human neural hacking, we create a perfect storm.

Nations can never defend against incoming fake news, hoaxes, psych warfare, riot inducing whats app messages, gossip and more.

The only way to stop this is to go from black lists (let people be on a "free net" and then take down blacklisted content) to a white list (let people only stay on a safe internet, and ensure nothing else gets in.)

This is what China does, and while not fool proof (people still find ways to share their dissatisfaction) its not bad from a central government perspective.

Most Chinese wouldn't know about Tianmen square for example, and are largely happy with the Government. Issues which do crop up with Government satisfaction can be resolved by finding a person responsible and then executing that person.

As long as you keep the system running (economic and job growth) most people will be happy.

Even in a worse case scenario, dissent will be hard to coalesce into outright rebellion.

I don't see how nations wont be driven to copying this model given the success of Brexit, Trump market spam, Virality of Hate speech and forums etc.

Further, techies on places like HN regularly keep moving the needle forward to make such technology easier to implement. I spoke to someone on a flight a while ago who is busy helping create language translation data bases which get used for predictive text recognition.

This reduces the "armor" or "camouflage" that non english languages had when dealing with authorities - eventually with a good dictionary, you can start making more sophisticated tools to identify language patterns and put them to a halt.

I see the above used every day when moderators put it to good use on forums like HN and Reddit. But thats a few evolutions away to being applied to larger scales (unless there is some genuine technical issue which prevents this - which will be seem as a "business opportunity" for someone to crack)

I have spent time moderating forums, I listen and read up on internet arcana and history, have met and speak with people who work on censorship in India, have friends in policy, and so on. I can only call this a hobby, but everything I have seen in multiple realms, I see nothing substantial, so far, which contradicts this thesis.

I see China as the likely END result of all nations, because of our good intentions.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by mav3rick on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:14AM (#19197227)
You forgot to mention the impending election coming up and how small businessmen are the crux of the voter base for the ruling party. The FDI marketplace regulations are very much to appease them. The national security issue is such BS. They could have done this anytime if they felt it was so bad.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by dmix on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:41PM (#19193642)
Probably sold India as an open modern marketplace where tech companies can thrive, without the typical gov intervention at every step. Then after a ton of foreign businesses got heavily committed/invested there the local political leeches swarmed in and made getting anything done hell.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by thaveedu on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:05PM (#19193270)
I would say things had changed in the past couple of decades with more public participation in democracy ,It is still not a absolute "land of law" but it is much better now and will outshine china due to democracy
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by billfruit on Monday February 18, 2019 @10:58PM (#19196472)
But Indian democracy is deeply flawed in implementation; the central government hogs most of the power while there is little left for state governments to make a difference, there is too little competition between the states. Moreover through the appointed Governors in states, the Centre influences things in the states as well, which isn't something democratic. In short, the federal structure is broken.

The upper house in parliament does not have equal representation for all states, unlike the US Senate. Moreover the central government can dismiss the state government on the flimsiest of grounds.

The buerocracy is deeply entrenched in policy making and execution, where it should be largely in the hands of the peoples representatives.

The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution.

The constitution itself is a shaky document, which does not guarantee protections to the citizens with sufficient absoluteness. Many provisions were defined ambiguously.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by intended on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:53AM (#19197845)
>the central government hogs most of the power while

This is not true, as most of the day to day life of normal Indians is affected by their local municipal corporation, then district, state and finally Central.

The central government takes up far too much of the mind space of most educated Indians for some reasons, but the poor and middle class who depend far more on local connections consolidate actual power in the local MLA.

> The upper house in parliament Is effectively a formality check for certain legislation. IF the same bill is sent back to the Upper house of the Centre they have to pass it.

> The courts are temperamental and inconsistent in interpreting the constitution.

This is only the supreme court, and that is their role - the larger malaise is the underfunding and unavailability of people to actually be good judges in the lower courts.

This is what is one of the corner stones of the problems the country faces: Actual timely justice.

This follows up with lack of independence and funding of police - however this will never become a core poll issue because the nation can constantly be distracted by a laundry list of issues which politicians can bring up.

IN general, people worry more about Center when they should be focusing on local elections.

The Government may pass strong Right to Information laws, but implementation is up to the States - and there you can see exactly the power States have.

The over focus on Central elections by citizenry gives state governments the ability to do what they please with impunity.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by vkou on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:33PM (#19193561)
Will it? Do you have any evidence for this, or is this the same wishful thinking that was repeated about China for the last twenty years?

Much to the disappointment of neo-liberals, we have discovered that there is no correlation between democracy, and economic development.

Compare China and India, Cuba and Haiti, South Korea before, and after Democratic reforms... The form of government is tangential.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by mmsimanga on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:44PM (#19193686)
I am really not qualified to comment on what is happening internally in India but as an African looking on I see quite a number of positives. Most of our drugs are now from India. Companies like Cipla are quite prominent. India manufactures their own cars( Tata and Mahindra both sold here). In Africa we have a few assembly plants, none of the cars or IP is really ours. India has launched a rocket into space and is planning on going to the moon. As I type this the Zimbabwean vice president is in India for medical treatment[0]. It has become common for medical aids here to send people to India for types of operations. I understand India has some way to go but hey at least you are making some strides. I am not so sure about Africa. The people making bricks and connecting solar panels for lighting are making some progress but nothing large scale such as going into space. Our governments are too inept for that.

[0]https://ewn.co.za/2019/02/12/zimbabwe-s-vice-president-recei...

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by pm90 on Monday February 18, 2019 @03:44PM (#19194261)
I don't think the argument is that India is not doing well in the absolute sense, but whether it could have done far, far better with a non-democratic political system like China.

I do think its an important question and one that should be answered in good faith. If we do believe that democracy does not hinder but perhaps help economic development, we should know that. If it does hinder, we should ask: is the price paid worth it?

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by mmsimanga on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:30AM (#19197284)
You ask a pertinent question that unfortunately will be shut down. The pro democracy movement has convinced us that even villagers in Africa should have a say in our monetary policy. No I am not saying villagers in Africa are stupid, they just have not been exposed to monetary policy. Same way I know nothing about diesel engines but I know about SQL. Democracy says we all have a say even in things we don't understand so we, particularly Africa end up with charismatic leaders who are willing to wing it. I gather from the little bits of history that I have read that most development in the West didn't happen under democratic rule. It is only relatively recently that the common man has had a say. Trouble with dictatorships is that you get good and bad. Rwanda and South Korea have thrived under "dictatorships". Whereas we have become a dysfunctional state. If only there was a way of selecting benevolent dictators and removing them. Alas there is no clear path.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by dv_dt on Monday February 18, 2019 @07:28PM (#19195753)
I suspect that democracy is mostly an independent factor from effective economic development. You can have policies and power structures that facilitate or hinder development under all forms of government.

Though I do think there may be an inhibition of development for economics that accept austerity and classical international investments advice.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by jacobush on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:29PM (#19195447)
Isn't India as a country much more diverse than China? I mean I realise China is diverse too but in comparison. Putting a heavy yoke on a diverse country sounds like a recipe for rebellion.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by WillSlim95 on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:20PM (#19195972)
India has 20+ languages with atleast one million speakers. China has one common uniting language Mandarin. I speak 3 Indian languages, yet when I moved to a new state for work, none of those languages help me while communicating with locals.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by SJetKaran on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:24PM (#19196570)
Yasheng Huang: Does democracy stifle economic growth? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-uWwvpn5c
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by brianpgordon on Monday February 18, 2019 @10:51PM (#19196450)
> Most of our drugs are now from India.

Heh, well that's because India doesn't exactly have a lot of respect for US pharma IP. Which is fine, but don't go giving India the credit for stolen IP.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by hiyer on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:20PM (#19196558)
The drugs manufactured by Indian cos are licensed, not stolen. The US itself imports several billions worth of pharmas from India every year, and the USFDA inspects pharma plants in India for this reason.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by masonic on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:54AM (#19198067)
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by brianpgordon on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:46PM (#19196665)
The reason that drugs manufactured in India and sold in India and developing countries are so cheap is that India has compulsory licensing and very weak protection for analogues. The US puts up with it because it's a big market and it can't stand US-level prices anyway. But it's not Indian IP, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to call it "stolen," at least insofar as intellectual property can be stolen at all.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by the_reformation on Monday February 18, 2019 @03:14PM (#19193975)
The evidence is exactly the opposite; "democracy and economic growth and development have had a strong correlative and interactive relationship throughout history." Refer here: http://ftp.iza.org/dp10880.pdf. This is especially true since World War II, and even more so after 1980, as the Soviet Union collapsed.

"Credit guarantee is one of the most significant positive links between economic growth and democracy. The marginal effects of credit guarantee and foreign direct investment inflows are stronger in democratic countries than they are in non-democratic ones."

China only experienced massive economic success after liberalizing its markets. For that matter, so did India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_Ind...) South Korea is essentially an American vassal state. Cuba is clearly not an economic success story, but of course if you compare it to the poorest country in the hemisphere (Haiti,) it comes out slightly ahead.

Ultimately what matters is whether your government is open to free trade and liberalized markets, and has enough legitimacy to enforce the rule of law (and attract foreign investment)- and has a healthy relationship with the United States. All of these are strongly correlated with democratic governments.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by tim333 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @03:56PM (#19202691)
Much of China's growth rate over the last 20 years was as a result of starting from a horribly low base after Mao and the cultural revolution reduced GNP per capita to something like $300. They are mostly just catching up with how Chinese were living outside of China in HK, Sing, the USA etc.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by tracker1 on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:56PM (#19194846)
China has done very well for some... but it's far from a communist utopia and very far from what I would consider an admirable goal for any citizen in any country to actually want to strive for.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by coliveira on Monday February 18, 2019 @02:55PM (#19193794)
Agreed, and is interesting to see that the arguments against China are purely ideologic. There is no fact supporting the idea that India would have an advantage over China because of democracy. In fact, people really don't care. As long as the quality of life for people is improving, they don't have any problem with a communist government.
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by Mirioron on Monday February 18, 2019 @03:36PM (#19194184)
>As long as the quality of life for people is improving, they don't have any problem with a communist government.

But they do or at least they will. At some point the next quality of life improvement you want is to be able to openly express ideas and not have somebody decide your life for you without input from you.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by pm90 on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:04PM (#19194433)
That is the dreaded inflection point the CPC wants to avoid. Its interesting to think about what would have happened if the sophisticated system of censorship currently in place would not have been present: if the great firewall didn't exist, would we have already seen riots, revolutions and such?

And that's the horrible conclusion I get from that fact: technology has always been celebrated as tool of liberation, but the CPC has effectively yielded it as a tool of oppression. And if the CPC can do it, why not other countries?

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by kbenson on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:34PM (#19196033)
It's just a tool, like any other tool. Any time someone publicizes a tool as for or against any one thing, it's at most more easily used in that respect for the current time or circumstances.

A bow and arrow can be an effective way to feed your family, or a tool or warfare that changed the outcome of many battles. Advances in textiles can be useful for keeping people warm in winter, or advanced armors with metal sewn inside.

It's not even as simple as a tool shifting from one thing to another either. Bows shifted from a hunting tool, to a tool of warfare, until eventually being relegated to sports equipment for the most part in the modern age. Medieval and Japanese swords used to be the heights of military technology, now they're collector curios.

I'm not sure of any technology that can be used purely for "good" or "bad", or even for one thing at all. The world doesn't often follow absolutes, so we shouldn't fall into the trap of believing absolutes when presented to us. At least not without a lot of justification and the requisite caveats.

Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by X6S1x6Okd1st on Monday February 18, 2019 @03:59PM (#19194392)
Do you have evidence for a lack of correlation between democracy and economic development?
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by danlugo92 on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:35PM (#19196617)
I'm sorry but I think we cannot call a country with no paper money democratic
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by hiyer on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:09PM (#19196519)
If you're referring to the new retail rules, the govt left enough loopholes so it didn't really affect Amazon and Flipkart for too long - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/retai...
Re:When India Kicked Out Coca-Cola, Local Sodas Thrived by dystopianqt on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:13PM (#19203392)
Thats not true anymore . Most of the services are online and with single window clearances . India has time and again taken steps to keep capitalist greed in control.