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Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by atemerev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @09:58AM (#19178777)
Quite normal everywhere in the world. It almost sounds like a contradiction in terms: “minimum wage” and “own apartment”. Here in Switzerland, I probably won’t be able to ever afford my own apartment, despite earning about $100k/year (and with “minimum wage”, it is solidly in a realm of fantasy). Were things different in the United States at some point?
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by tyingq on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:25AM (#19178949)
"Were things different in the United States at some point?"

Anecdotal, but when I was a kid in the 80s, minimum wage jobs were mostly part-time, and meant for teenagers living at home, bored retirees, etc.

Unskilled workers with any sort of ambition could fairly easily get 2 to 3x minimum wage and afford a very modest studio apartment.

Once manufacturing jobs went away, it seemed to kill that off. Before that, even if you didn't work in a factory, other employers had to compete for that wage level.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by jvanderbot on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:30AM (#19179345)
Exactly. The expectation that any and every job should be a path to complete financial independence is ridiculous.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by tyingq on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:36AM (#19179383)
True, though ambition and work ethic isn't always enough for basic financial independence now. It used to be.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by bleakcabal on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:09AM (#19178861)
It's afford to rent not afford to own. There are people with full time jobs living out of cars.

I'm sure at 100k you can afford to rent a one room apartment.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by atemerev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:11AM (#19178872)
Yes, of course. OK, renting is another story.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by hackerman12345 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:13PM (#19179977)
Americans use the word apartment as something that is rented. You don't buy an apartment, well unless you're a landlord. It's owned by somebody else.

I think the way you are using the word is our "condo", perhaps.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by graeme on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:09AM (#19178858)
They're talking about renting I believe. In American English apartment generally means rent, and condo generally means own.

The article really should have made this clear though.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by jvanderbot on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:40AM (#19179412)
US here: I'm baffled by the assumption that every single job must pay enough for a 1BR apt. When I was 14, I worked in fast food, and never expected to be able to afford anything other than hobby dollars.

We have a shortage of totally-unskilled jobs that can support a family if both parents work, and that has translated into calls for things like increased minimum wage.

But there is not a shortage of jobs for those willing to put a year or two into trade training, and those often pay well enough to buy a home in a small town.

Many of the fastest growing jobs (bls.gov)[1] pay well over $10/hr and require little a priori skills.

Here you can make 2-4 times that with no education [2]

And here you can take 2 years of school to get a job that pays quite well[3]. Well enough to easily buy your own home and remain employed in a fast-growing sector for life. In some communities, those two years are paid for as long as you go to tech school in the same district you went to high-school in.

This minimum wage argument hides the real opportunities. Re-training and education is the key.

1. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm 2. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=%2455%2C00... 3. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm?pay=&education...

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by ThePadawan on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:06AM (#19178841)
Are you talking about "owning" an apartment? In that case I would agree, else I would have to highly doubt your statement.

(Source: Similar income, living on my own and in Switzerland, within 30min of a major city)

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by atemerev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:10AM (#19178867)
Yes, owning.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by chimeracoder on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:02AM (#19178806)
> . Were things different in the United States at some point?

No, at no point in the history of the US, even when the minimum wage was first created, would the minimum wage have been enough to afford the median 1BR.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by masonic on Sunday February 17, 2019 @07:50AM (#19184216)
Back in the 1950s, minimum wage and CoL were based on a metric of a single woman living very frugally and sharing a 2-bedroom apartment.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by maratd on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:07AM (#19178845)
> Were things different in the United States at some point?

No, but there is a political movement in the United States toward a universal income upon which anyone can live comfortably and this is a symptom of that. Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living. I'm not sure how flipping burgers is a career, but to each his own. On the other side, those same jobs are also being heavily assaulted by automation.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by scroot on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:12AM (#19178876)
It's not a matter of perception. Since the recession, most of the new jobs created have been of the low/minimum and part time variety.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by ceejayoz on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:27AM (#19178967)
> Jobs that were previously considered in the realm of "teenager jobs" are now perceived as actual career tracks and a means toward a living.

This is a funny way of writing "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated".

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by hedvig on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:08AM (#19179223)
> "previously lucrative careers available to blue-collar workers have largely evaporated".

This is a funny way of writing "citizens should just accept any scraps they get"

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by atemerev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @12:09PM (#19179568)
Trades are as strong as ever. Only manufacturing jobs evaporated, but this is not about automation, this is because of a certain country starting with “C” (not Canada).
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by komali2 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:09AM (#19179226)
I don't think they stopped being teenager jobs, I think the education system across America failed to keep up with the world. Some schools can't even do 5 day school weeks anymore, and the switch to standardized testing may have been in good faith but it just led to less time for practical skills to be taught.

Imagine if every high school had the budget to run a modern, staffed programming lab, garage, chemistry lab, hell astronomy lab? If kids could get hands on, across America, at age 13? I desperately wish I had Musk levels of wealth if nothing else so I could just start plopping labs across middle America, where as a child my own craving for a hands on education was never delivered by my public schools.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by maratd on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:36AM (#19179391)
> Imagine if every high school had the budget to run a modern, staffed programming lab

I don't need to imagine. If you work that minimum wage job for ONE DAY, you'll have 100 bucks in your pocket. You know what you can do with that money? You can buy a ten year old enterprise grade server that's been decommissioned and is for sale on eBay, with free shipping. Now you go on /r/homelab and get free help to get it up and running. All the software is free.

There are always excuses, but let's not sit here and pretend like things are more difficult now than they were before. They've never been easier and we've never had as much opportunity.

When I was growing up, any capable computer, used or new, was $3k and there was no internet, no help, and no free software.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by lenticular on Saturday February 16, 2019 @12:43PM (#19179774)
This is really getting delusional as far as the average person's abilities. It's also clear that you have been poor. Besides, if you are working minimum wage jobs, you don't have $100 bucks in your pocket because you need that money to pay rent and repair your shitty car so you can keep your job.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by maratd on Saturday February 16, 2019 @02:58PM (#19180614)
As a kid, if you’re working a minimum wage job, it’s not to pay rent or to repair a shitty car you don’t have.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by lenticular on Sunday February 17, 2019 @08:38PM (#19188082)
We're talking about adults, not kids.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by komali2 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:12PM (#19181266)
Interesting, do you have more resources I can share with people?

Generally, I think you're right that a lot of the information is available. I think maybe there's a misunderstanding with just how little "money availability" there is for someone in rural America working a minimum wage job, hence why my dream is to target people while they're still in school.

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by lenticular on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:02AM (#19179186)
A few decades ago, you could support a family and buy a house on one income, with only a high school education. That is not remotely true anymore.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by briandear on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:41AM (#19179421)
Not true. You can go into the trades and make a very good living with just high school as formal education. There are plenty of software devs that never went to college. Plenty of people across the country do just fine on one income without college. The difference now is that somehow people started considering “fast-food cashier” as an actual “career.” Somehow every single job in America is supposed to support a family. That ridiculous. Some jobs are and should be “teenager jobs” or “extra money” jobs — not “support a family of four and rent an apartment” job. Minimum wage makes up such a small percentage of workers that it seems strange to expect those jobs to be able to support families and housing.
Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by marklyon on Sunday February 17, 2019 @01:15PM (#19185862)
But, when your union contracts use minimum wage as the base for their calculations, it's far easier to advocate for raising the minimum wage than it is to negotiate a higher multiple, etc.

The contract for the cleaners in my office[1], for example, starts its base wage calculations by adding $0.50 to the minimum wage. All the increases and adjustments begin at that number.

[1] http://www.seiu32bj.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2015-CAD-...

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by lenticular on Saturday February 16, 2019 @12:42PM (#19179768)
There's nowhere near the number of highly-paid manufacturing jobs anymore. You can make an argument that it's possible for someone to make a good living with a HS education if they play their cards right, but it certainly isn't as probable.

There just is nowhere near the amount of well-paid blue collar jobs, so there are not as many people getting those jobs. Simple as that. This is a big part of why income inequality has become bad. You seem to think that people have suddenly become much more lazy and shiftless than in the past, which is

Re:Minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a ... by endofcapital on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:01AM (#19178800)
It wasn't normal at all anywhere in the world until very recently. The world has changed so much in just 50 years that people often just flat out don't believe me when I tell them what it used to be like. Even when I'm willing to present evidence, they just don't believe it.

I'm not sure how to overcome that.