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Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by SpikeDad on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:36PM (#19100272)
Big benefit for payday lending companies who charge obscene fees mostly in poor and minority areas of the country.

Which consumers is the CPB protecting?

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:55PM (#19100466)
> Which consumers is the CPB protecting?

(1) It's the CFPB (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau), the headline provided a description not a name (titlecase makes this ambiguous, though the body provides the correct name.)

(2) It's not protecting anyone; the administration is hostile the CFPB mission. It is being neutralized from within.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by tptacek on Thursday February 07, 2019 @12:28AM (#19103218)
I read through about half the CFPB rulemaking analysis that's being reported here and while I agree that the Trump administration is hostile to the CFPB, I don't think this is a fair summary of what's happening with the payday loan rules.

As I understand it, the Obama-era CFPB rules for short-term loans basically decimate payday lending. For instance: most payday loans (85+%) are repaid, but most also require multiple sequential loans to do that. The Obama-CFPB rules set a low threshold on consecutive loans, eliminating the mechanism through which most borrowers financed them. The Trump-CFPB calculated that the Obama-CFPB rules would break something like 60% of all loans.

Meanwhile, there are fairly extensive state-level regulations surrounding payday loans: many states bar them altogether, while others set rate caps so low that they can't viably be offered. There's ample evidence that states are actively engaged in making decisions about how they want lending to work.

So the basic argument boils down to:

If you want to end all payday lending nationwide, even for states like Illinois that have decided they should be available, then Congress should pass a law that does that. What shouldn't happen is an obscure CFPB rulemaking process that monkeywrenches the industry without a vote.

I'm not a fan of payday loans and would support a congressperson who voted to ban them federally, but I understand the logic CFPB is using.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by pvg on Thursday February 07, 2019 @03:38PM (#19108350)
So the basic argument boils down to

That's the basic argument in a particular branch Republican thought, against the entire system of regulatory power delegated by congress to federal regulatory agencies. It seems weird to state it unlabeled.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by tptacek on Thursday February 07, 2019 @03:52PM (#19108478)
I'm more sympathetic to the Democratic side of the argument then the Republican argument, but the notion that major changes to policy should be made through legislation and not administrative rulemaking isn't really a fringe idea; it is as least practically universal to Republicans, not a particular branch of them.

There's also a broad partisan split on the question of how much new authority the CFPB actually has for regulating non-banks. One view of the CFPB is that its regulatory authority (as opposed to its supervisory authority, which is expansive) is derived primarily from the previous agencies it consolidates, none of whom had a charter to end payday lending. So another way to look at this is, it's within CFPB's charter to use its authority to collect data unfavorable to payday lenders and then write a report about how terrible payday lending is, but it remained up to Congress to rely on that report to impose a federal ban on the practice.

The overarching point is that this isn't so much a distinct feature of Trumpian corruption, so much as simply a predictable consequence of Republicans controlling the executive branch.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by pvg on Thursday February 07, 2019 @05:32PM (#19109290)
isn't really a fringe idea

It's not a fringe idea in itself but in the context it's a talking/advocacy point that is a foundational building block of something quite different. I wish I knew more about spotted owl or food labeling matters so I don't have to use such overwrought examples so excuse/bear with me:

'states rights' is in itself not a fringe idea but at the time it was deployed entirely to advocate against federal civil and voting rights legislation - that was the goal, rather than a desire to debate the nature of the federal structure of the United States. 'Patient safety' is similarly deployed with the goal of restricting reproductive rights.

'Congress should spell it out' is precisely in that vein - its goal is the structural defanging of the federal regulatory regime. To my mind, that's a fairly conventional, mainstream analysis rather than than some lefty fever dream of mine. In this particular case especially - I think (if I'm remembering this right) both houses of Congress took the matter under consideration and neither brought it to a vote.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by tptacek on Thursday February 07, 2019 @06:09PM (#19109619)
I don't think your argument is a lefty fever dream, I just think there's a mainstream good-faith argument that rebuts it.

More important to me, though, is that CFPB is essentially the DHS of finance (a Voltron agency that centralizes a bunch of random oversight authorities that already existed) and neither the CFPB's enacting legislation (in Dodd-Frank) nor any of the extent authorities CFPB draws on appear to give it the authority to effectively end payday lending.

I think it's fair game for the party that (1) controls the CFPB now and (2) was already and (often) in good faith opposed to regulatory-state-creep and (3) definitely opposed to the idea of a nationwide ban on payday lending given that this issue is already aggressively litigated in the states to then say "the previous CFPB was really reaching when they tried to quietly eradicate most payday lending, and now that we've taken over, we're not going to push the ball to the end zone on that attempt".

To me: a good reason not to vote for Republicans! But not a good example of how this administration is breaking norms or rules. And there are so many real examples of that!

I'm only really irritated by the argument that this policy change was brought about by payday lending lobbyists, as if mainstream Republican thought didn't already say "consumers should have the freedom to purchase financial services they think they need". It's not even hard to make that argument colorable: you have terrible credit, live paycheck-to-paycheck (like most Americans), have an unexpected expense, pay it, and a week later find out you're going to have your electricity turned off. Without payday loans, a lot of Americans in this (common) scenario are S.O.L. This is what Rayiner was saying when he said the old CFPB attempt was addressing the symptoms and not the problem.

I don't fully agree with this argument! But I can't easily shoot it down.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by pvg on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:22PM (#19110480)
I should have been clearer about the monoatomic diamond tip of my nitpickery - I just mean that your description of the argument is, come si dice, non-NPOV. That's both fake Latin and Wikipedia jargon, I've caught the Golden Snitch, +150 me, I win.

I don't think the specifics are some glaring example of trumpian norm-breaking or corruption or whatnot, either.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by tptacek on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:27PM (#19110512)
Come si dice is Italian, not Latin!
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by pvg on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:41PM (#19110614)
Italian is the original fake Latin.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by mwexler on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:44PM (#19100355)
Consumers who run payday lending companies.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:51PM (#19100416)
Yup. This was made pretty clear when they tweaked the mission statement back in 2017. http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-cfpbs-mission-st...

> The banking watchdog’s mission statement now lists its first order of business as hunting down “outdated, unnecessary, or unduly burdensome regulations.”

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by danso on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:51PM (#19100422)
I was going to make a joke about how it's no longer the CFPB, its public brand since its original creation, but the BCFP, a branding change that was ordered in 2018 by then-acting director Mick Mulvaney. But it looks like the new director put a stop to that nonsense: https://www.americanbanker.com/news/bcfp-no-more-kraninger-s...
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by cure on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:43PM (#19100351)
The ones with very deep pockets who own the payday lending companies, of course.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by andrewla on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:51PM (#19100424)
Arguably, the consumers that the CPB is protecting is those who are aware of the fees and conditions but still require payday loans, who would be excluded from consideration by the new rules [1], which do not change the interest rate requirements but exclude some customers from eligibility.

If people didn't want these loans, the companies would not exist. If the loans were capable of being serviced at a lower rate, then new companies would form to offer lower fees and charge less interest. The biggest blocker to the latter, ironically, is regulations that aim to prevent new payday loan companies from forming by requiring compliance with industry best practices.

This is a classic example of "regulation made the problem worse, let's add more regulation and see if that fixes it."

[1] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/CFPB_Proposes_...

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by fzeroracer on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:02PM (#19100540)
You can also look at it from another angle, which is that companies can and will ruthlessly exploit people without other options or choices, followed by hiding fees, clauses etc designed to keep people coming back.

I don't think this is a problem of regulation run amuck at all. It reminds me a lot of how games whose primary focus is gambling can and do extensively reach out to children in order to either earn money through advertising or by making kids into gambling consumers.

Consumers may demand it, but you have to look at what companies do to increase demand and keep repeat customers. You could argue that if people didn't want to play those games they wouldn't exist; I argue that companies create consumers through malicious policies and advertising.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by asveikau on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:59PM (#19100508)
> If people didn't want these loans, the companies would not exist.

Careful, you can justify all sorts of scams this way. Just substitute any kind of illegal or misleading behavior. Eg., to take it to an extreme: If the people didn't want the Nigerian prince scam, they wouldn't keep it going!

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by hnzix on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:13PM (#19100637)
I have conflicted feelings about payday loans. When I was young and broke with no credit, I've used payday loans in emergency situations (medical bills, car failure etc). I knew full well I was being gouged but my only other options were illegal loan sharks or catastrophic failure (eg loss of job because no vehicle). I was happy to take the loan even at usurious rates.

OTOH in the payday office there were obvious addicts on benefits who were being skimmed every month and could never get ahead of their debt.

Does the need to protect vulnerable people who make bad choices outweigh my need for a high-risk emergency loan? It's not a straightforward ethical situation.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by CydeWeys on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:37PM (#19100836)
> Arguably, the consumers that the CPB is protecting is those who are aware of the fees and conditions but still require payday loans, who would be excluded from consideration by the new rules [1], which do not change the interest rate requirements but exclude some customers from eligibility.

I'm not sure many such people exist. Surely the vast majority of payday loan companies' customers are not these kinds of people, but rather, people who are being taken advantage of.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by chris_va on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:52PM (#19100964)
"Also, the official, who spoke to journalists on condition of anonymity, said that if the rule had kicked in, some two-thirds of borrowers wouldn't qualify for a payday loan."

... pretty brutal. From the CFPB[1], 82% of loans are renewals, and ~50% are longer cycles of debt. So, naively, of the 66% of people no longer eligible, one might expect 75% (50%/66%) of those to be stuck in a debt cycle and 25% (16%/66%) to no longer have access to credit.

[1] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/201403_cfpb_report_payda...

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by genkimind on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:55PM (#19100467)
This is an excellent point.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by megous on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:11PM (#19100620)
It's just one point though. Many of these comapnies engage in a very scummy behavior. Just read the linked PDF.

IRL, scummy behavior often gets you ahead of the honest competitors.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by syn0byte on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:07PM (#19100590)
Protecting the customers buying the laws of course.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by maratd on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:46PM (#19100379)
> Which consumers is the CPB protecting?

Those very same consumers. Large, established players do not want to even touch that customer base because it represents a high risk and a low payoff.

These are the only financial services these people have access to. Cutting that off is not a solution.

Encouraging competition and increasing the number of players will reduce the "obscene fees". People aren't stupid, they'll always pursue the lowest cost option.

A good article/video to listen about this topic:

https://reason.com/reasontv/2017/04/13/lisa-servon-banking-c...

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by Johnny555 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:51PM (#19100425)
From that article:

The first thing that really struck me in the book is that there are more payday lenders and check cashers in the United States than McDonald's and Starbucks combined. Is that true?

How much more competition do you think there can be? And if "These are the only financial services these people have access to" and "fees are high because because it represents a high risk and a low payoff", why do you think the fees will be lower without regulation?

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by maratd on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @06:01PM (#19101042)
> How much more competition do you think there can be?

Quite a bit more, apparently. See the other comments here. There are startups trying to tackle the problem.

Regulation is not the answer. Competition is.

If you feel you can provide better service at a lower cost, the field is wide open.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by Johnny555 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @06:41PM (#19101380)
Regulation levels the playing field.

It'd be easy to undercut the airlines by starting a company that eschews safety regulations.

It'd be easy to undercut the banks by starting a company that eschews financial regulations.

It'd be easy to undercut a doctor by offering services by unlicensed medical staff that don't follow medical guidelines.

There are lots of businesses that would be more affordable to the poor if they didn't have any regulation at all.

Reasonable regulation is not a bad thing, it ensures that consumers are getting what they paid for and that they aren't being exploited. Like, giving the customer a $500 loan at 300% interest that they may never be able to pay back so they end up in an endless cycle of debt.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by maratd on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @07:09PM (#19101608)
> Like, giving the customer a $500 loan at 300% interest that they may never be able to pay back so they end up in an endless cycle of debt.

If that's the percentage being charged and that's the best a person can do, that means that person has a very high chance of defaulting on the loan.

Which would explain why nobody else wants to lend to that person. With your regulations, that financial institution would not exist. You can't regulate people into losing money. They'll just shut down.

You've now deprived the person of a legal financial option of borrowing money. You think they won't borrow anyway? They will. From a loan shark. They'll go into the black market.

They'll end up paying more for that loan since the shark now needs to cover the legal risk involved and if they don't pay it back, they may end up with broken legs.

How is that better?

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by Johnny555 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @09:58PM (#19102602)
The same could be said about allowing poor people to seek treatment from unlicensed medical practitioners "If we don't give them our substandard medical care, they'll get it from underground providers that will be even worse".

Or let them be served by an unregulated transportation providers "Well yeah, our buses aren't safe, some of our drivers have suspended licenses, but if they don't ride with us, they'll ride with someone worse".

Just because there are worse alternatives is no reason for the government to sanction exploitative businesses.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by maratd on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @10:58AM (#19144548)
> The same could be said about allowing poor people to seek treatment from unlicensed medical practitioners

No, it can't. Because they can always walk into a hospital and receive treatment, even if they have no capacity to pay. A hospital may not refuse treatment.

> Or let them be served by an unregulated transportation providers

Like Uber?

Interestingly enough, if an unregulated method of transportation becomes popular enough, it gets regulated, not regulated out of existence.

Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by seandhi on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:51PM (#19100412)
There are a few startups, like Earnin, Even, and SoLo Funds trying to tackle this problem in different ways. Lending options for those markets are vitally important, for sure, but we can find a better way of doing it without abusing the ones who need it most.
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by breatheoften on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @06:57PM (#19101504)
I'd be curious to know -- if you issued loans via prepaid credit cards that explicitly could not be used for gambling/drug dealer payments - what happens to the default rate of your (remaining) customers ... - can you filter out enough high-risk scammers to serve a legitimate market segment (with more fairness) with this kind of tactic?
Re:Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Pa... by seandhi on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @07:00PM (#19101538)
I’m not sure what you mean. I recently interviewed with Earnin and SoLo Funds, and they have their own risk and reputation algorithms based on many factors. All loans are no interest - borrowers pay a gratuity of their choosing. They are running at a much lower margin than traditional loans, and especially cash advance/payday loans, from what I understand.