News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by dangrossman on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:14PM (#19058690)
> and their families

That's how a local cold murder case was solved last year.

DNA from a 25-year-old crime scene was run against the samples in one of these genealogy databases, and they found a familial match. Police set up a sting to covertly collect DNA from that person's immediate family. They got their DNA match with a brother's water bottle police took from a trash can after he worked a DJ gig at a school.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/christy-mirack-slaying-upd...

The now-confessed killer was the DJ at my wedding. He never would have been caught if his brother hadn't done one of these genealogy tests. He wasn't even a suspect in the initial investigation.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by ptero on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:54PM (#19059097)
Total surveillance or global DNA law enforcement database would solve many murders and prevent wrongful convictions. However, it would also give many opportunities for framing convenient suspects and "encouraging" confessions.

I am sure your case was above board but, being born in a totalitarian state, I do not trust law enforcement too much and prefer to err on the side of not solving some crimes. My 2c.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by djsumdog on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:29PM (#19060630)
The UK takes DNA samples of every person arrested. There it's controlled by the government. In the US, it's held privately. Both situations are disturbing.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by phishfi on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:37PM (#19060869)
The US also takes DNA and prints from arrestees and maintains it in a federal database (CODIS for DNA, FBI for prints).
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by mirimir on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:22AM (#19061281)
Same here. However, I have no illusions about stopping any of this. The global panopticon is just too useful for authoritarians.

So my solution is to avoid attracting any attention in meatspace. Not doing anything that could generate troublesome records. Such as leaving DNA around. I mean, I certainly leave DNA around, when I go out for stuff. But there's nothing involved that I need to hide.

I also make no effort to hide anything that I do online as my meatspace persona. Because that would attract attention. I do use a VPN service, but that's not at all unusual where I live. And I do torrent some, even when I'm not really after anything. Just as cover.

Anything potentially troublesome, I do via nested VPN chains and Tor. Mirimir just uses nested VPN chains. But then Mirimir just writes about stuff, so hey.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by vonseel on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:46AM (#19062125)
This has to be one of the strangest replies I’ve ever read on HN.

Off to google the term “meatspace” now.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by mirimir on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:33AM (#19062288)
Well, there was the "Meat Puppets", formed in 1980.

And then Terry Bisson's "They're Made Out of Meat", published in 1990:[0]

> "They're made out of meat."

> "Meat?"

> "Meat. They're made out of meat."

> "Meat?"

> "There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

So yeah, it's a term that we old geeks use.

Recent usage by John Markoff:

> "True Names" by Vernor Vinge (1981): "The basic premise of that was, you had to basically hide your true name at all costs. It was an insight into the world we’re living in today … We have to figure it out. I think we have to go to pseudonymity or something. You’re gonna participate in this networked existence, you have to be connected to meatspace in some way."

And yes, we "have to go to pseudonymity or something". If we care about privacy, anyway.

0) http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html

1) http://renaissancechambara.jp/2017/06/14/oprah-time-true-nam...

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by NeedMoreTea on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:05AM (#19062182)
http://catb.org/jargon/html/M/meatspace.html

Goes back to the earliest days of online existence, to distinguish the two.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by Scoundreller on Saturday February 02, 2019 @02:58AM (#19061792)
> And I do torrent some, even when I'm not really after anything.

I’d like to subscribe to your RSS feed of magnet: links.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by mirimir on Saturday February 02, 2019 @03:29AM (#19061885)
I typically search TPB for recent action and horror films. Especially new Miike stuff.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by tomonl on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:41AM (#19062098)
> Total surveillance or global DNA law enforcement database would solve many murders and prevent wrongful convictions. However, it would also give many opportunities for framing convenient suspects and "encouraging" confessions.

I am afraid it could cause wrongful convictions as well. Let's say there is a 1 in a million chance of a false positive, if you have an enormous database there is a large probability of a false positive even though your individual risk is low. As far as I understand DNA evidence is often damaged or incomplete, meaning this could be a serious risk.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by dennisgorelik on Saturday February 02, 2019 @09:49AM (#19063223)
Increase in the ratio of solved crimes will make society less tolerant of wrongful convictions.

If ratio of solved crimes is not high enough -- society tolerates wrongful convictions -- because without risking wrongful convictions it is hard to make any convictions at all.

Because DNA testing increases the ratio of solved crimes, it decreases the chances of wrongful convictions.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by erikpukinskis on Saturday February 02, 2019 @01:27AM (#19061496)
So, as with all things which can be good or bad depending on use, we allow people to voluntarily choose whether to participate. What’s the problem?
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by labster on Saturday February 02, 2019 @01:47AM (#19061566)
The problem is the that genetic data discloses PII on other people without their consent. It cannot be a fully voluntary system.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by Quekid5 on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:10AM (#19062196)
Lack of truly informed consent
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by heyjudy on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:18PM (#19061020)
Yes, the panopticon is a dangerous ideal. :/ Given enough technological progress, if everyone's DNA were kept in a database, that's a juicy target for any numbers of crimes, misuse, violence, privacy invasion and stalking, i.e., hackers break-in in order to selectively extort rich people with engineered diseases (sounds like a Black Mirror script).
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by JoeSmithson on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:16PM (#19059284)
How would it let you frame convenient suspects? Surely you would need to place that suspects DNA at the scene, in which case you already have it...? Where does the database come into this?
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by freeflight on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:34PM (#19059823)
> Where does the database come into this?

"The scientists fabricated blood and saliva samples containing DNA from a person other than the donor of the blood and saliva. They also showed that if they had access to a DNA profile in a database, they could construct a sample of DNA to match that profile without obtaining any tissue from that person." [0]

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by phs318u on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:57PM (#19060933)
> if they had access to a DNA profile in a database, they could construct a sample of DNA to match that profile

Oh wow. Really??? Any experts in this field reading this? Would love to hear someone with pertinent authority tell us this isn't true. (Please don't be true)

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by hedora on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:57PM (#19061185)
It is simple to do, assuming the police are using genotyping instead of a full genome sequence for the match. (This is the common case today.)

Genotyping works as follows: there are thousands of regions of “junk” dna in the human genome that don’t code for anything. There is no evolutionary pressure to preserve the exact length of these regions. (They probably help the chromosomes fold up in ways that encourage/suppress the activity of certain genes, help the molecule be more robust, etc).

Since there is no evolutionary pressure to preserve the regions, they tend to be full of hard to copy junk like ATAT..... that tends to change every few generations.

Genotyping works by isolating a bunch of these regions, and using PCR to create millions of copies of each region (with ~one sample per region).

Finally, you put a drop of the each sample and some die on a electrophoresis gel, and apply some current. Different sized molecules move at different rates, so this gives you a crude measurement of the length of each molecule.

To fake a match, all you need to do is produce something that will trick the first step of all this into grabbing molecules of your choice of length, which will fool the rest of the process. If you want to see how that would work, read up on “pcr primers”.

Source: I used to work in a genotyping/sequencing lab as a bioinformatician, and worked on algorithms that did exactly this sort of analysis (not the forgery bit though).

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by mirimir on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:27AM (#19061294)
Hey, that's just like fake video.

So you could fake everything. Video surveillance, DNA samples, testimony from dishonest informers and investigators, etc. This is just a tweak to parallel construction. And outright framing.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by dsl on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:08AM (#19061227)
DNA is supposed to be supporting evidence of guilt (A number i've heard thrown around is it narrows down to 1 in 1m, with >300m people in the US that is still not perfect).

Instead CSI has taught your average juror that it is irrefutable proof of guilt.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by lostlogin on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:19PM (#19061024)
There links in that NY Times article and they look like reasonable sources.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by clouddrover on Friday February 01, 2019 @08:54PM (#19060496)
> Surely you would need to place that suspects DNA at the scene

Don't underestimate DNA transfer. Your DNA can end up in locations you have never been:

https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by ivalm on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:10PM (#19059684)
Right now you do not have a convenient way to force your target to submit to a DNA test. This way you can frame someone by placing their DNA at the crime scene and then having it "discovered" using DNA testing company data.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by zaphirplane on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:00PM (#19060942)
Because there is a line when framing people never to be crossed ;) come on throw in a shoe print,a witness, fake signature. something extra
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by csallen on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:28PM (#19059387)
Just because the government finds your DNA at the crime scene doesn't mean they know it's yours. They have to match it against some sort of database that connects the DNA to your identity.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by notahacker on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:31PM (#19060123)
There's a case against globally accessible DNA databases from the point of view of dragnet approaches picking up people whose connection to the crime scene is either totally incidental or actually nonexistent and purely down to data mixups, but that's a largely separate issue from authoritarian police trying to massage the evidence in a case against a particular person.

If you're already a "convenient suspect" the police wish to build a case against, they don't need to find you on a consumer genetics database to be able to obtain a sample of your DNA or strongly hint that they expect to be able to use DNA evidence (truthfully or otherwise) to send you away for a very long time if you're not willing to consider moving to plea bargaining territory.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by vetinari on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:37PM (#19059460)
With enough corruption, they might also "find" it on the crime scene.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by politician on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:50PM (#19059916)
Exactly, while DNA may identify an individual with high precision, we have to trust that that DNA was actually associated with the location or event.

Consider a public bathroom: how much DNA is at that location? How much is relevant to the event?

Consider a corrupt lab tech: The DNA at the event might be reported as DNA from their database. Does a defense attorney get to see the untainted sample?

Consider a corrupt/hacked DNA database: The database might report that the DNA belongs to one individual when it actually doesn't. Does a defense attorney even get to see the source code?

In these scenarios, the link to any individual is either of little consequence, or fraudulent.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by carbocation on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:52PM (#19059928)
And in case this sounds implausible, a corrupt lab tech handled 60,000 cases in MA:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/annie-dookhan-chemist-at-mass-c...

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by kingkawn on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:43PM (#19060884)
With Pcr you’d only need a very small sample to produce enough DNA to smother a crime scene in “evidence”
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by hinkley on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:36PM (#19059841)
That's wonderful if the crime is something clear-cut like murder. We can generally all agree that it is unethical and worthy of punishment.

What if it's something we can't quite agree on, or tyranny of the majority? Joe McCarthy happened once, and he didn't give a shit about ex post facto. Presuming someone like him will never come along again is a road to pain and suffering.

Spend ten minutes reading about what Crypto-Judaism is and why it is even a thing. Then look at abuse of power (I've known 2 people who have had LEOs as stalkers). A big part of warrant law is the premise that you don't give people information they don't need 'just because'. Very similar to the computing concept of Principle of Least Power. They prove they need it, you give it to them, but not a moment before, because who knows what they'll get up to.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by frutiger on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:16PM (#19060582)
> I've known 2 people who have had LEOs as stalkers

What's an LEO? My first thought is Low Earth Orbit, but obviously that's not right. Googling "leo" and "leo stalker" doesn't bring up much apart from horoscopes.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by morgancmartin on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:21PM (#19060610)
Law Enforcement Officer
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by telchar on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:21PM (#19058754)
Indeed. Not that I plan on being involved in any such crimes (necessary disclaimer?) but a family member of mine submitted their DNA to one of these services. Now it's irrelevant whether I submit mine or not because it's as good as in there anyway. Feels real good having your rights signed away by someone else...
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by lotsofpulp on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:22PM (#19058777)
What rights? Surely if you have rights to your DNA, then your family member has rights to their DNA. It’s just an unfortunate consequence of how DNA works.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by jhayward on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:49PM (#19059038)
It is probably wrong to think of DNA as personal property. Its public use more closely resembles a commons which is shared by many. We don't give individuals the right to pollute air, for instance, simply because they own property that has air on it.

Likewise we should develop principles for information which when combined with other information can be used to transgress against 3rd parties' enjoyment of their own privacy.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by shakna on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:11PM (#19060035)
> Itis probably wrong to think of DNA as personal property.

DNA cannot be thought of any other way whilst we continue to use it for personal identification.

We don't have another mechanism for protecting something uniquely identifying from tyranny.

Perhaps we should, especially as in this case others privacy may be co-dependent on myself, as you noted.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by maxerickson on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:19AM (#19062031)
In the US we absolutely don't treat DNA as personal property.

For instance, there's no need to get a warrant to follow you around and pick up something that you discard and then examine that object for DNA.

[dead]
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by jhayward on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:01PM (#19059621)
I think you're missing an important way of looking at DNA. It is clear that most people view the details in their DNA as being specific, private information about themselves and want to have control of what can be done with it.

DNA is also shared, however. A relative can currently choose to reveal private information in their DNA that also reveals information that you consider private in your DNA. This is the way in which DNA has a shared or commons aspect.

My point is that the shared nature of DNA means we have to look outside of individual actions to preserve the privacy rights that many seem to want preserved. In other words, I shouldn't be able to use my DNA to reveal private information about anyone else.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by kenjackson on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:19PM (#19060070)
Given that you leave DNA all over the place, we should really ask if DNA is indeed actually private. In many regards it seems less private than your facial features as I don't routinely leave my facial features on restaurant silverware.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by acct1771 on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:41PM (#19061128)
DNA dies in a day.

That Dropcam stream Google flagged your facial fingerprint on...not so much.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by interestica on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:58PM (#19059607)
Is there anything quite as shared as DNA? You share 99.xxx percent with everyone else. You share a significant portion with other species. Other living things.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by interestica on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:02PM (#19059625)
Also, we can't conflate DNA and one's specific DNA sequence. It's like the majority of the code is GPL.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by pvaldes on Friday February 01, 2019 @08:15PM (#19060312)
> Is there anything quite as shared as DNA?

Music for example. The same poool of musical notes in 100% of compositions. Just arranged in different ways, like DNA

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by ekianjo on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:26PM (#19060624)
Completely wrong analogy. Most genes sequences are completely identical between humans. The differences in genes for specific traits are marginal, percentage wise.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by pvaldes on Saturday February 02, 2019 @06:13AM (#19062437)
And everybody uses a microphone, guitar, bass, keyboard and some kind of cowbell. trebble clef, bass clef, verse, hooks, a chorus, tempo, allegro, presto, bits per minute... completely identical in many songs.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by vonseel on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:50AM (#19062141)
Hmm, I would have guessed differently but I was also an undergrad biology dropout :/ wasn’t concrete enough for me.

FWIW I can see where he was coming from.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by drilldrive on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:09PM (#19060026)
This exact scenario is what I find to be a call to a fullness of individualism to be quite inappropriate. We are not just ourselves, but of our parents and grandparents, and of our children. And to forget our lineage is to forget ourselves, in part at least.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by erikpukinskis on Saturday February 02, 2019 @01:40AM (#19061543)
> We don't give individuals the right to pollute air, for instance, simply because they own property that has air on it

Lol, what planet do you live on? Sounds dope.

The battles to price externalities into markets here on Earth are all hard fought. By default if you can’t see it you don’t pay for it. Anything beyond that needs to be pounded out in the political ring.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by andrei_says_ on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:39PM (#19058941)
No, it’s an unfortunate consequence of how the dna test provider treats everyone’s data.

It’s incredibly empowering for abuse and completely disrespectful to the individual. The assymetry is staggering.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by AuthorizedCust on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:48PM (#19059027)
What if a court compels the analysis or data sharing?
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by drharby on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:37PM (#19059455)
That migrates the issue from business ethics and consumer rights to that of legality.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by andrei_says_ on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:59PM (#19060940)
The fbi has is own database. Of course having everyone’s dna will help them solve a few (one?) more crimes. At what cost?
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by dacox on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:17PM (#19059288)
They just solved the murder of a child near my house using a technique like this.

My understanding is they asked everyone they could find in a specific ethnic community if they would volunteer a sample for a kind of dna dragnet.

The killer was related to one of the many people sampled.

Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by mkl on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:45PM (#19060894)
If the DNA was gathered for one specific purpose like this and not kept on file, I think that's pretty unobjectionable. As soon as it's on file in a database, though, there's potential for uses further and further removed from those envisioned by the owners when they gave the samples.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by _Codemonkeyism on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:31AM (#19061307)
Now you can refuse to support prosecution against family, but your DNA can't.
Re:One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Worki... by ralfd on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:38AM (#19062089)
> The now-confessed killer was the DJ at my wedding.

That is a bit morbid.