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Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by threeseed on Thursday January 31, 2019 @12:51AM (#19042690)
Humans also have 576 MP quality eyes with a computational engine behind them the likes of which humanity isn't even remotely close to replicating.

The idea that you can throw a cheap camera in a car and think you can achieve the same always seemed strange to me.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by sliken on Thursday January 31, 2019 @04:06AM (#19043485)
I read the justification for that 576MP number and it looks wildly optimistic. Sure eyes can differentiate two lines close together... when at the center of vision. Then they multiple that by 120 degrees horizontal and vertical.

Unfortunately resolution of your eyes drops off quickly from the center of vision. Yes you can move your eyes to focus on different things, but so can cameras.

Sure the mental image you build is high resolution, but not that directly related to reality. A good example of this is the numerous optical illusions that depend on you looking at a point of an image, building a mental representation of that image, then finding a conflict whenever you move your eye.

Link that seems to be the source of the 576MP number: https://art-sheep.com/the-resolution-of-the-human-eye-is-576...

Not what I'd call a particularly scientific explanation.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by TorKlingberg on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:41AM (#19045506)
> Unfortunately resolution of your eyes drops off quickly from the center of vision.

True, but we can move our eyes around very quickly. Cameras in self-driving cars are usually fixed.

Also, human eyes have better dynamic range.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by MrEldritch on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:25AM (#19054283)
I actually took the time to calculate this a while ago - basically, angular resolution drops off pretty much exactly as 1/(angular distance) from the center of focus, and the total angular size of the human visual field is only so big (and is measured). The actual answer is closer to 1 megapixel at any given time.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by visarga on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:59AM (#19043002)
> with a computational engine behind them the likes of which humanity isn't even remotely close to replicating

Let's not forget about human experience. It gives context to any visual perception, and can't be replicated by cars. We simply have access to a larger, more complex environment, and the environment fosters our intelligence. It's easy to overemphasise the brain to the detriment of environment, but in reality the environment is the main cause for the development of intelligence in the brain. The corollary is also true - a lower complexity environment will lead to lesser intelligence, no matter how powerful the brain is. Intelligence springs where agent needs meet with external limitations, those limitations guide its development.

By analogy, the environment is like the training set and the brain is like a deep neural net. A deep neural net with a poor training set is not going to be accurate. That's why DeepMind, OpenAI and others have focused so much on artificial environments (games) to train agents - they know that environments are the key to training advanced AI. A mere dataset is like a static environment where nothing new happens. Research is transitioning from datasets to simulated environments for the next step in AI. I'd even go as far as to track the evolution of AI by the evolution of environments and environment models.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by ec109685 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @04:07AM (#19043491)
Human experience dies with the person who acquired it, whereas machines can continue to learn indefinitely from a larger and larger pool of labeled data. Think about all the "take overs" when AI fails that Tesla sees each day that are made available to their training set.

As for the point about the training environment, a lot of what AI cars do is learn from simulations.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by hprotagonist on Thursday January 31, 2019 @08:28AM (#19044525)
>Human experience dies with the person who acquired it...

unless they wrote it down.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by lm28469 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @08:50AM (#19044652)
Books are one of the best thing we have to transmit experiences but it's far from a 1:1 process. Two people can read the same book but take away diametrically opposed things due to their own experiences / expectations.

You can read all the books and notes about WW1 battles, you'll never come close to feel what they felt in the trenches.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by hprotagonist on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:29AM (#19045402)
Sure. Those objections are just as valid for "how i felt last week", though. The past is a foreign country, even to those of us who were around for it.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by PhasmaFelis on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:56AM (#19045628)
Human knowledge can be written down, but knowledge is a poor shadow of first-hand experience.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by ric2b on Thursday January 31, 2019 @07:51AM (#19044338)
> Humans also have 576 MP quality eyes

Even if that's true, I (and almost anyone) can also drive cars in computer games at 1080p or less.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by endorphone on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:06AM (#19045189)
Humans also have 576 MP quality eyes

This is a spectacularly misleading claim. Humans have a very small field of high-definition vision, and a wide range of low definition vision, easily exceeded by almost any camera system. Where humans excel is in the heuristics of taking marginal information and teasing out meaning (not always the correct meaning), though neural networks approximate that system.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by skohan on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:50AM (#19045570)
The point stands though; we use our binocular vision to assemble a 3D representation of the world through neural networks. Why not skip some of the middle steps if we can design a system which already gets an accurate distance field as input?
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by sliken on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:45PM (#19051408)
Because you lose color and end up with a HUGELY lower amount of data. Lidar is quite expensive, so you end up with a few of them.

Tesla has something like 10 cameras running 1280x960 @ fps or similar. With so few data points (and no color) you can't identify similar vehicles. After all snow plows, school busses, ambulances, bikes, motorcycles, police, etc all have different behaviors. Some even signal cars with spot lights, police red/blue lights, brake lights, blinking high beams, etc. All would be invisible to lidar and contribute to lidar controlled cars acting less like human driven cars.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by Already__Taken on Thursday January 31, 2019 @03:58AM (#19043453)
Ideally the computational engine thrown behind the cameras isn't also thinking about what could be wrong with my showers thermostat.

Biology got to be just good enough to make it to tomorrow. Photosynthesis is one of the oldest mechanisms around right? Quick google and at the moment that turns sunlight to energy tops out at 6%, now look at solar panels https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/PVeff%28...

Now, commenting on biology and electronics are topics vastly outside of my ability. I'm just trying to make the point that we can't be the best it can get, surely? We long left the time where industrial progress meaning "pick one things and do it well"

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by SilasX on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:46AM (#19045543)
In fairness, plants satisfy different design criteria: they're also edible and self-replicate.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by MaBu on Thursday January 31, 2019 @11:26AM (#19045943)
Even Photosynthesis can be improved: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/genetically-engin... by 40% apparently.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by codinger on Thursday January 31, 2019 @05:34AM (#19043825)
Doesn't seem strange to me. I can drive a car with a vr headset. The computational part I would agree with though.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by Spivak on Thursday January 31, 2019 @11:14AM (#19045790)
I don't think it's so strange, it explains very effectively that driving a vehicle has very little to do with the optics and sensors because humans can drive with a crappy camera, limited fov, and two small super inaccurate mirrors.

It's all about the data processing and the breakthrough that will enable human-ish self-driving cars will be there and not in more accurate sensors.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by trhway on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:14AM (#19043053)
>Humans also have 576 MP quality eyes

yep, resulting rich details simplify stereo matching a lot. Instead of complicated algorithm it allows our brain to just run simple displacement match in extremely parallel fashion natural to the brain.

>The idea that you can throw a cheap camera in a car and think you can achieve the same always seemed strange to me.

it isn't strange, it is just a bit early. Running 1MP stereo on a single core P4 in 2004 was just pitiful. These days a 20MP sensor costs under $30 and 16-32 cores is having much better time with it (using GPU is much cheaper and several times faster - it is just that i have these workstations around with good CPUs and no GPU to speak of. Tesla for example does run powerful GPU for their cameras.) So, scroll forward another 15 years, and we'll have nice stereo with something like 200MP sensors. I honestly don't see how lidar can do even just 4MP at minimally usable 30FPS in any foreseeable future (as probing at 150m is 1 microsecond per pixel).

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by grogenaut on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:03AM (#19042741)
are you telling me the retina display is a LIE?
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by mkbosmans on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:45AM (#19042932)
So how much is that 1MP retina display covering of your field of view?
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by grogenaut on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:21AM (#19043090)
the way I see most people using it when driving, walking, in meetings, at a resturant? 80% of the high res part.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by bm1362 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:05AM (#19042751)
They never said who’s retinas you were getting.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by tauwauwau on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:27PM (#19047885)
xkcd visual field

https://xkcd.com/1080

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by ehnto on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:02AM (#19043010)
Although sometimes the depth of field settings are misconfigured in your human's config files, making those 576 mega pixels pretty unhelpful.
Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by Nition on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:35AM (#19043130)
Depth of field is adjustable for all by resizing the aperture (a.k.a. the "eyelid" mechanism). Try a higher f-stop ("squint") if you're having trouble with it.

However, the focal point with respect to the sensor is indeed miscalibrated in some units, and good units can become miscalibrated over time. There are some after-market correction devices available.

Re:Lidar Is a Crutch by SomeHacker44 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @11:39AM (#19046069)
Higher f-stops are especially helpful for astigmatism correction. Overuse of the increased non-autonomic f-stop has been associated, however, with distress signals being generated by nearby actuators, resulting in a feedback loop of reduced f-stop to decrease said distress signals.

:)