Also, I'd just like to call out how much of an outright lie the phrase "Your [...] data will never be shared or sold to anyone outside of Google" is. If Google were to go into bankruptcy procedures at some point in the future, that data is simply another asset which will be sold off to someone else, with no respect for the privacy policy it was collected under (not to mention how privacy policies can change and retroactively cover data already collected).

Also, what do we know about the contract they signed? It's probably not the regular privacy policy.

Informed consent is kind of a grey area. How much do you normally know about the consequences of your actions? How can you prove that you know what you're doing? Should your freedom to enter an agreement be restricted if you can't prove that you know what you're doing?

Legally, you prove consent by signing a contract. Sometimes people go above and beyond that to make sure people really and truly know what they're getting into, but there's a question how far you should go.

I don't think we can know just from reading this article how informed the people signing up were. They didn't interview anyone to find out.

It's hard for me to see either of those cases being a slam dunk here. There's at least some potential for serious harm in the event of a data breach. And the potential benefit - an already rich company getting even richer - doesn't carry a whole lot of moral weight.

I’ve never heard of corporate market research being reviewed and approved by an IRB. Not sure how that would work since the board would hardly be independent anyway, but I’d guess the main reason it doesn’t happen is there is no law requiring it.

Passively reading something usually isn’t enough. The minimum often some kind of interactive explanation that includes a way for subjects to ask questions. I’ve heard tell of groups giving short “quizzes” for experiments with wired requirements and side effects.

For kids specifically, you often need to get both the parents’ consent and the child’s assent. The details vary with the child’s age (older kids opinions get more weight) and the nature of the research (kids can opt out of basic research, but the parents might be able to override the kids’s desire to (say) avoid a shot if it’s part of a potentially lifesaving clinical trial).

I was surprised recently to learn just how grey.

The company I work for used to have a big full-page opt-in form for text messages. Then one day it was pulled from the web site. Why? Because our usually very privacy-conscious legal team decided that if anyone gives us their phone number anywhere, it counts as consent to receive text messages.

Very sad, and in my opinion slimy. I’m glad I’m not on the social media team.

There’s an “enterprise certificate”—installing the enterprise certificate allows you to side-load applications. This is relatively benign. Both Facebook and Google do this, in both cases apparently a violation of Apple policy.

There’s a “root certificate”—installing the root certificate allows you to do MitM attacks and read encrypted traffic like messages, bank passwords, etc. The Facebook app appears to do this and I would characterize this reckless, irresponsible, and unambiguously unethical.

Sure this particular app is debatable.. but I have also worked in the music streaming industry. While being super respectful of the users, we still have sometimes had to wait for months for Apple's approval.

Having a single agent being able to gatekeep what you can install on your phone at their own discretion is an issue since there will always be the temptation to prevent any competitor from getting in your space.

As I understand it, it’s because the apps were being distributed using a method that is supposed to be used only inside the company. Like for beta testing software, or for in-house applications used by employees only. Anything going to the general public is supposed to go through the App Store under Apple’s terms and conditions.

You're basically saying you like Blockbuster video because there's no porn and they only have the "edited for the Airlines" versions of movies.

Great, but other people would like to use their device for whatever they want.

Yes, I know you'll say "so buy a device from someone else". I don't agree with that anymore than I think Ford should be able to make a car you're not allowed to drive anywhere Ford says your not. If Ford did that I don't think the answer should be, "if you want to drive other places buy a car from someone else". IMO the answer should be it's illegal for Ford to control my car to that level.

I'm hoping Apple loses the case against their monopoly on the App store (although given the details of the case I don't think this particular case will succeed so I'll have to wait for another)

You only buying Nike shoes does not require that all other companies are banned from selling shoes, you only eating McDonald's burgers does not require all other restaurants to be closed, and you only buying software through Apple does not require that there is no other ways to install software either, that's just authoritarian bullshit.

It's their platform, they can choose the rules behind app distribution. They chose to allow it through methods controlled by themselves. If a third party wants to distribute apps, then they have to abide by the terms set by Apple.

We're a large NFP but not a particularly large organization so I'm not sure if we get preferential treatment but our business lead has a direct point of contact with an App Store representative and has used it to get extended information about and, from our perspective, force through Apps releases stuck in review.

He isn't the type of person to sit idly by when a process is taking an abnormal amount of time so part of me thinks it isn't a case of preferential treatment but rather the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

I'm sure having someone he can get on a phone and hold accountable goes a long way. I'm still unclear how he managed that.

You are not playing. You are presenting arguments and attempting to sway opinion.

I’ll ask directly: do you not stand behind the arguments you’re making?

You seem not to understand the concept of Devil's Advocate, while the person you responded to clearly does.

It's only the argument that counts. A person is thereby shielded from association with the argument and does not need to show their real intent.

For example, in gsuite they only claim to not mine your data for advertising purposes. Does that mean 'we only use your data to provide the service', or does it mean 'we use your data for everything but advertising'?

Many people I know barely even know how their data is or isn't used, and are shocked by recent news stories. That's not informed consent imo

1. Google's entire business model is advertising through collecting more complete user data.

2. Why would they collect this data if not to further their advertisement business?

3. I've never heard of companies collecting data that wouldn't further their business pursuits.

This data is either "digital-oil" or "digital uranium" both still extremely valuable.

Data laundering needs to be recognized as a thing.

They have enough paid devil’s advocates arguing for them disingenuously; no need to spread their propaganda for free!

From a very quick online search:

* https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/30/google_slurp_ok/

* https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/technology/eu-google-fine...

* https://variety.com/2019/data/global/google-fined-57-million...

Of course, such fines (etc) are subject to potential change over time because lawyers. But they're definitely not a bastion of good actions and credibility. :(

If you'd rather deal with evidence and reason than with guesses, I can understand that. But dude...c'mon.

I've seen this argument a few times recently. It's not clear to most people what they're signing up to. They've clicked through a EULA, that somewhere in thousands of lines mentions a separate Privacy Policy which they would then have had to load, in order to decipher more thousands of lines of legalese to find the few lines of 'active ingredient' which would tell them what's actually being recorded.

Even when it does technically declare somewhere in there what "might be" recorded (usually in terms like "we record data such as [...]" which don't actually limit what they can record), the company itself will handwave it away as "we're just covering ourselves in case we have to write your name down if you call us for tech support" or similar inanities.

The fact that so many people were surprised about the Cambridge Analytica scandal when selling such access is explicitly Facebook's business model and everyone participated voluntarily should tell you everything you need to know about how much the average user of these services "knows what they're doing".

Devil's advocate is exactly the right word for defending these practices - they're like a Disney villain holding a giant contract scroll and a fountain pen dipped in blood. Don't worry about the fine print, just click ACCEPT, and I'll give you what you want, right?

But do the people they interact with, or invite into their home, know what they are doing? Does Google presume to have consent-by-proxy here?

[0] https://xkcd.com/1432/