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Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Itaxpica on Thursday January 24, 2019 @03:55PM (#18992854)
Funny how people only ever use "entitled" to describe labor demanding better treatment from management, but never to describe management demanding that labor do more for less.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:53PM (#18994250)
> Funny how people only ever use "entitled" to describe labor demanding better treatment from management, but never to describe management demanding that labor do more for less.

“Entitled” is a term used by elites to describe their lessers seeking to be above their rightful station. It's only ever used to punch down.

Other terms are used for the already powerful seeking to retain power including some that reflect the speaker's perception that it is unjust power involved, but “entitled” just isn't generally used in that direction.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Kalium on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:11AM (#18995729)
I regularly see "entitled" used as a slur against those seen as assuming privileges they should not have or do not deserve. I've seen it attached to the Covington teenagers more than once.

With that in mind, I think the word may have a general-purpose use to describe people grabbing for things the speaker things they should not have.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by SquishyPanda23 on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:43PM (#18994197)
Adam Smith discusses this asymmetry in Wealth of Nations. He basically says both business owners and labor try to organize, but business owners tend to win because it's easier for them to make it illegal for labor to organize.

Edit: This is the passage I was thinking of

"We rarely hear ... of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines ... that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate.... Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy till the moment of execution; and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people. Such combinations, however, are frequently resisted by a contrary defensive combination of the workmen, who sometimes, too, without any provocation of this kind, combine, of their own accord, to raise the price of their labour.... But whether their combinations be offensive or defensive, they are always abundantly heard of. In order to bring the point to a speedy decision, they have always recourse to the loudest clamour, and sometimes to the most shocking violence and outrage. They are desperate, and act with the folly and extravagance of desperate men, who must either starve, or frighten their masters into an immediate compliance with their demands. The masters, upon these occasions, are just as clamorous upon the other side, and never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, labourers, and journeymen. The workmen, accordingly, very seldom derive any advantage from the violence of those tumultuous combinations, which ... generally end in nothing but the punishment or ruin of the ringleaders."

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by alexgmcm on Friday January 25, 2019 @04:59AM (#18996812)
I often wonder how many of those who purport to follow the ideas of Smith actually read his works.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by austincheney on Friday January 25, 2019 @02:40AM (#18996241)
Have you ever lived or worked in a third world country and seen people struggle to make ends meet? I mean really struggle. I have. It makes me wish I could drop my kids off in Afghanistan or a Syrian refugee camp for two weeks so that they can see just how good they actually have it when they curiously find things to bitch about.

I have worked immediately next to a former South African military officer that now works as a senior software engineer at one of the most profitable companies in the world. This person has also seen and experienced unimaginable poverty first hand and its amazing how quickly these experiences bring people into a common understanding or appreciation.

I think the world entitled is completely appropriate in this context. To reaffirm that when employees walk out of Google for a protest it isn't the contractors or employees in the various support jobs who walk out. It is the entitled software engineers whose jobs are more mobile and face less income insecurity. Ask any Googler that walked out about that stratification.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Itaxpica on Friday January 25, 2019 @01:41PM (#19000958)
Ok, but you haven't actually addressed the main point of my comment. If it's entitled for labor to demand better treatment when there are kids starving in Africa, why is it not also entitled for management to demand said labor do more work for less? Your comment is entirely orthogonal to this tension.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by austincheney on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:16PM (#19004743)
Those two things are highly subjective. If the treatment upon the labor could be improved then what are the problems worthy of addressing? It seems software developers at Google have it pretty nice.

As for management demanding more for less that is far more complex than it sounds. Does that imply pay reductions, improvements to efficiency, increased labor education, automation, something else, or a mix of various factors? Demanding more for less is perhaps one of the most solid ways a small shop can compete and take share from a giant titan.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by gdfasfklshg4 on Friday January 25, 2019 @04:34AM (#18996714)
> To reaffirm that when employees walk out of Google for a protest it isn't the contractors or employees in the various support jobs who walk out. It is the entitled software engineers whose jobs are more mobile and face less income insecurity. Ask any Googler that walked out about that stratification.

It does depend why they are walking out. If a software engineer walks out in support of a cleaner then this is the opposite of entitled behaviour. Unfortunately e.g. the UK has made this illegal.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Itaxpica on Friday January 25, 2019 @01:39PM (#19000938)
You do realize that several of the walkout demands were specifically designed to improve treatment of temps, vendors, and contractors as well as full-timers, right? Most of the Googlers who walked out explicitly did so in support of the folks who couldn't.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by daemin on Friday January 25, 2019 @06:14AM (#18997092)
This reminds me of the French Revolution. Originally started by the wealthy middle class, soon more disaffected people joined and then heads rolled.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:32PM (#18994126)
Management can "demand" whatever they want, and employees can refuse whatever they want. It's how supply and demand works, and how free markets work.

The problems happen when the government interferes in this process. For example, recently Washington State removed the exemption mentally disabled workers have from minimum wage laws. This was hailed as a victory for justice and fairness. The result is those workers can't get a job anymore.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Zarath on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:59PM (#18994280)
"free" markets aren't necessarily "ideal" markets. See concepts like: leverage, cost externalization, etc. The "free" market argument is so tired.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @07:50PM (#18994536)
Free markets are the worst basis for an economy, except for all the others.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by chasontherobot on Thursday January 24, 2019 @09:01PM (#18994908)
Citation needed
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @09:48PM (#18995137)
The spectacular performance of the US economy, 1800 to the present, relative to countries with varying levels of socialism. The poor performance of socialist industries in the US. The failure of any socialist/communal agricultural system to produce enough food to feed itself. (Even the Soviets gave up on collective farms.)
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Thursday January 24, 2019 @09:59PM (#18995167)
Was the market in 19th century America truly free?

http://histsociety.blogspot.com/2013/12/why-were-tariffs-pol...

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @10:27PM (#18995304)
Was it a perfect free market? Nope. Nothing human is perfect. But it was a workable approximation of one.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Thursday January 24, 2019 @10:33PM (#18995333)
This isn’t a moral judgment. But a market propped up with strong tariffs is by definition not a free market. The American economy you’re lauding was a mixed economy.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @11:28PM (#18995566)
You can't make water 100% pure, either. That doesn't mean you're not drinking water.

Your claim that it must be perfect to be considered a free market is argumentative, not substantive.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:01AM (#18995695)
Ha-Joong Chang might disagree[0], but okay I’ll dodge the No True Scotsman accusation.

What’s your definition of free market, then?

[0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/ha-joon-...

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @01:15AM (#18995944)
It consists of transactions among freely consenting adults that do not use force or fraud.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Friday January 25, 2019 @01:47AM (#18996055)
Sounds like that's compatible with the German social market, or Nordic social democracy. Or even the protectionist Asian Tiger states.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @04:46AM (#18996773)
The law is use of force. Examples: setting wages, employment terms, price setting, quotas for women on corporate boards, etc.

Protectionism isn't free market, either.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by AstralStorm on Friday January 25, 2019 @05:20AM (#18996888)
You've just mentioned activities an employer (or government) does.

Market doesn't do any of these. Prices or wages do not set themselves "because market wills it". They are set because people will not accept a different outcome. If the employer is stubborn and there are few other options, nobody can really drive the wages up.

Taking anot market is like talking about evolution. It is not even a force, just a label for emergent behavior.

So the market is as free as people are, and the main damper are actually mobility and debt. People who cannot move are limited to local market which can have a very different equilibrium. People who are in debt are forced to take immediately available offers.

And finally, a typical person cannot outwit or outwait a corporation, much less government.

Information asymmetry and availability of various instruments of pressure is vastly different.

By the way, corporate law and setting wages is also use of force. You do not get to really negotiate any of it from equal position. Likewise you are very limited in negotiating credit. The difference is, law is at least slightly transparent and corporate law is not.

So, where it's this "free" in the market?

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @02:35PM (#19001604)
Force: do this or I will beat you or kill you or imprison you

Not Force: do this or I won't give you something of mine

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Friday January 25, 2019 @06:15PM (#19003538)
Also Force: do this or I will undercut you, bankrupt you, or sue you into oblivion
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:18PM (#19004337)
Suing is using force via the legal system. Undercutting someone is not. "bankrupting" someone depends on how they go about it.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Apocryphon on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:53AM (#18998361)
The tariffs article literally describes the U.S. as very protectionist up until it implemented the income tax.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by xg15 on Friday January 25, 2019 @02:15AM (#18996146)
Power imbalance is ok though.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @04:44AM (#18996762)
What can Bill Gates make you do?
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by ionised on Friday January 25, 2019 @04:25AM (#18996682)
That's just trade.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by xg15 on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:53PM (#18994254)
Well yeah. Not being able to make ends meet while working is more morally justifyable than not being to make ends meet while unemployed, I guess.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Thursday January 24, 2019 @07:49PM (#18994527)
Making ends meet isn't really the issue. Mentally disabled people are usually taken care of by relatives. They can't live on their own.

But they want to feel valued and do worthwhile things. By pricing them out of a job, they are denied that opportunity.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by xg15 on Friday January 25, 2019 @02:26AM (#18996179)
This is a strange logic. Your description of a job is more that of a glorified hobby.

Meanwhile, are you expecting that the relatives (if they exist at all) shoulder all the burden and costs of caring themselves?

Only because someone does not live alone doesn't mean they don't have a cost of living. Indeed, a disabled person's cost of living is likely higher than an able-bodied one. Nevertheless, they should be expected to compensate this with a lower income than everyone else?

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by skookumchuck on Friday January 25, 2019 @02:36PM (#19001619)
The trouble with your position is it renders the person unable to get a job, i.e. it makes the situation worse.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by daveheq on Thursday January 24, 2019 @04:20PM (#18993082)
There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled"; so many people abuse the word.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by DoctorOetker on Thursday January 24, 2019 @05:46PM (#18993830)
if the quote is

>Googlers just come off as entitled

then "entitled" does seem to be the same concept you refer to as "self-entitled" ...

I don't mind people proposing different uses of language, but the person you are responding to literally quoted "entitled" which in original context meant exactly what you refer to as "self-entitled"

so I really see no value in your "correction" or was that a "self-correction" ?

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 24, 2019 @07:02PM (#18994298)
> There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled"

The former is a superset of the latter and the former term is often used for the latter, as here, where the specific subset being referenced is clear from context.

> so many people abuse the word.

Not particularly; natural language is just subject to more contextual nuance in meaning than most computer code.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Aunche on Thursday January 24, 2019 @04:49PM (#18993362)
Every time an Googler has a minor complaint about something that is miles away from their area of expertise expertise, it blows up to the front page of Hacker News. That's what I find entitled. They can't accept that one of the largest companies in the world is not going to bend to the wills. This happened with the Damore memo or project Maven, so they feed misleading information to the media to get populist pressure on their company. Now, everyone is acting suprised that Google is looking into protective measures.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Zombiethrowaway on Thursday January 24, 2019 @05:04PM (#18993496)
>Every time [...] it blows up [... on] Hacker News.

Or only every time you hear about it?

Yes, employees are fighting for their wills. What's wrong with that? If you don't fight you don't get anything

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by Aunche on Thursday January 24, 2019 @07:17PM (#18994389)
There is a fair and dirty way to fight. I think most people on HN agree that Damore was out of line to milk all the controversy when his memo leaked out. I would argue that similar things happened with Maven, Dragonfly, and exit payouts to execs, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by tripzilch on Sunday January 27, 2019 @06:38AM (#19011344)
There is no dirty way to fight Google. It's not a person. Google lost its face years ago. Are you seriously arguing being nice to a lifeless construct? It's a mechanism, a machine, and it has buttons to interact with. Not everyone can reach the same buttons but that doesn't mean that some are dirty.
Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by roenxi on Thursday January 24, 2019 @05:58PM (#18993925)
> What's wrong with that?

Being employed by Google should not give you special political or social privilege. For someone to have the privilege of deciding what one of the worlds largest companies does, they should stump up the resources to become a shareholder.

You do not want corporations becoming political. Grocers should not choose their customers based on their political leanings. That would be bad. The principles are the same.

Re:Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Wo... by greedo on Thursday January 24, 2019 @06:24PM (#18994076)
Corporations are already political.