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Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by duxup on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:18PM (#18878293)
I'm at the point where I just assume that if it is cryptocurrency, I assume the likelihood of being a scam is close to 100%.

I followed cryptocurrency just casually out of curiosity for awhile but the association between that and scams and crime and such are just so high I have to wonder if I'm alone or if there really eventually is a perception problem.

Obviously you could argue "hey just money has that problem" maybe, but for some reason I don't make that association.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by ZainRiz on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:46PM (#18879132)
It's not that cryptocurrency is inherently a scam, but people have found no good use case for it yet (other than scamming people).

It seems like that for any problem that you could conceivably use a cryptocurrency to fix, we can easily find other solutions that are actually much cheaper and much more efficient.

That's not to say there aren't any problems that cryptocurrencies are better at, there could be, but so far no one has discovered them.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by CryptoPunk on Friday January 11, 2019 @01:26PM (#18885596)
Seems to be useful for representing and trading assets. See all the ERC20 tokens and all the Decentralized Finance applications built around them.

Or the ERC721 token interface for representing in-game assets that can move across gaming worlds.

Adoption of these open standards means a large number of applications can be accessed from the same wallets.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by liamzebedee on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:25PM (#18879521)
Forgive my naivety, but I feel this is down to the earliness of the ecosystem and infratructure. We are getting more and more validation of relatively simple use cases (CryptoKitties) in combination with the current state of the art in dapp tech (Metamask provider, Ethereum’s 10s block time for finality, centralized exchanges and early decentralized exchange).

Once the blockchain tiramisu becomes less like a delicately constructed interaction of tech and more like a modular/mature stack, perhaps the UX barrier to entry will be low enough to reap the network effect.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by TylerE on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:31PM (#18879967)
Bitcoin is over 10 years old. That’s almost half as old as what most people would call the modern internet.

Stop using that “early days” cop out. It still has the same fundamental issues.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by jsloss on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:50PM (#18880055)
Right, 10 years in and bitcoin has proven it's value as a digital alternative to gold.

Ethereum is 4 years old, and the vast majority of "tokens" even younger. Crypto is very much still early. I don't mean this as a "cop out" but rather a sober reality of how much further the tech has to go.

Would it not be more fair to compare crypto progress to that of the early internet? It took most of a decade of development before the modern internet was born, another decade before the bubble burst and a few more years before pundits stopped calling it a fad, and recognized the business value.

We should all be skeptical of those who would over promise and under deliver on new technology, but I can't imagine why we wouldn't assume an optimistic stance towards it.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by anyfoo on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:16PM (#18880196)
No, the Internet, even before it was called that way, always had more demand than capacity. For various reasons, not all of them commercial, the Internet was a thing that was very much desired. Even before that, people wanted to build the Internet's predecessors: Connecting computers (long before they were common!) to foster easy and quick communication and exchange of data over any distance was something people have always been working towards.

The Internet was always growing in capacity, size, population and applicability. At no point was there anyone ever saying anywhere "gee, we have so much Internet, what shall we ever do with it". Even during and just after the dot com bubble the Internet itself still continued growing.

Comparing cryptocoins to the Internet, the thing that massively changed virtually all aspects of human life in the past few decades, is...

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by _tulpa on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:09PM (#18880162)
proven it's value as a digital alternative to gold

I wouldn’t expect to be taken seriously after leading with that...

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by jsloss on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:47PM (#18880618)
You’re right I should have included a “so far”.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by ryanmercer on Friday January 11, 2019 @01:58PM (#18885880)
>Right, 10 years in and bitcoin has proven it's value as a digital alternative to gold.

Meh, it's far more volatile than gold. What it has done is proven it's value as the cash-equivalent of the internet for illicit trade.

It is hard to say how much bitcoin (and other cryptos) are used for illicit trade but one simply has to log onto a darknet market and look at the number of reviews for specific product listings, or for entire seller accounts to see that likely tens of millions of dollars a day in exchanges are occurring across 'publicly known' darknet markets, the bulk of that for drugs although still a decent amount for digital services like credit card dumps as well as fake identification/documents/coupons, weapons etc.

I even found human remains for sale on a darknet market while attempting to get a rough idea of how much commerce is taking place on them early last year. Multiple sellers had basically every major bone in the human body for sell including dozens and dozens of skulls . Now, you can buy skulls on the clear net but they're often well-handled medical specimens. I got the very distinct impression these were absolutely grave-robbed remains.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by int_19h on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:03PM (#18880686)
Bitcoin is basically the first prototype, with all problems that entails. I would be extremely surprised if it ends up being the cryptocurrency that wins in the end.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by cslarson on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:49PM (#18880047)
Bitcoin has little to do with the value that will come from blockchain.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by jsloss on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:07PM (#18880708)
Bitcoin is an example of the value that has and will come from blockchain. It has everything to do with it.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by bfuller on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:54PM (#18879228)
>but people have found no good use case for it yet

Buying drugs is a great use case

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:08PM (#18879369)
Also ransom and extortion.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by dmckeon on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:26PM (#18879535)
Are crypto-currencies not effective as a money-laundering method? I had assumed that part of the great rise and fall of BTC was dark money flowing in & out on its way to some clean-looking equivalent, plus some speculation on the side.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by nerdwaller on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:50PM (#18879687)
I’d argue (generally) no, because literally every transaction is in the ledger. Then there are two ways to get value back out:

1. At some point you want to get fiat back out, thus associating your identity to transactions. While there are some exchanges that are less stringent on verification requirements, the tie is pretty simple to see via the surveilled central banking system in most countries that tends to maintain the strict-ish verifications.

2. Exchange for goods. Unless this is off-chain, it’s again pairing a physical good back out somehow in an exchange of things.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by cslarson on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:53PM (#18880072)
You can get around this by "washing" via a privacy coin like monero.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by UncleEntity on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:01PM (#18880411)
You can also "wash" physical bank notes but that in no way helps you launder the money, you still need a plausible explanation on how it is in your possession when The Man comes asking.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by duxup on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:39PM (#18880583)
Yeah that is the dangerous thread as far as getting caught goes.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by rocqua on Friday January 11, 2019 @11:26AM (#18884568)
"I invested well in Monero"
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by nerdwaller on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:00PM (#18880669)
Definitely a good point, though really depends on where how that Monero trade happens. If it’s ever traded/redeemed on an exchange, that privacy mostly disappears.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:29PM (#18878395)
I think if the crypocommodity game has done anything it's created a more clever and more technically proficient scammer.

According to the article, many real people who likely consider themselves experts in this "field" were at least initially fooled.

I don't think your comparison to real money is wrong at all. Look, we can mostly all understand what real government issued money is. If people into crypto were first forced to understand what it is - the entire system would disappear in an instant.

I've said it before, there are geniuses in the cryptocommodity game. But they aren't the ones trying to buy low and sell high and concerned about forks. They're the ones pumping out SEO-invested ICOs, running exchanges, selling newsletters and books (or whatever the current version of that is). War is profitable if you're the arms dealer, not the solider.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by icebraining on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:54PM (#18878664)
Look, we can mostly all understand what real government issued money is

Not really, the vast majority of people have no real idea of how it works, beyond the simple cash transfer. In fact, the term "government issued money" is evidence of that - almost all money is created by commercial banks, not government.

We know money in the same way that people in ancient times knew the Sun - its workings are just regular enough that we can predict its effects on our lives tomorrow, without having to actually understand nuclear fusion or radiation.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by walrus01 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:41PM (#18878505)
> According to the article, many real people who likely consider themselves experts in this "field"

A lot of people who thought they were bitcoin "experts" lost all or most of their coins to MtGox.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by duxup on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:43PM (#18880597)
MtGox is such a great and terrible example how even with some level of service there to help.....it can be even more dangerous.

And for all anyone know, they could have stolen it all from their own customers.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by nyolfen on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:16PM (#18879877)
and a lot of so-called ‘police’ end up shot by criminals themselves
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by glenneroo on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:54PM (#18880371)
Do you honestly believe that's an apt analogy?
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by Karunamon on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:41PM (#18880590)
In that both are pithy dismissals that convey nothing of use to the conversation? Absolutely.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by nyolfen on Sunday January 13, 2019 @01:40PM (#18897988)
my point was that getting ripped off wouldn't preclude them from being 'experts'
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by pytyper2 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:38PM (#18878471)
I know how you feel and have followed crypto from the beginning, never willing to risk more than a few hundred quid. I think the main difference in how i feel about crypto vs fiat government issued currency is two fold: inability to pay taxes with it, instability in price that prevents a quick cashout on a greasy day. I'd rather buy a rolex or gold bullion if I'm going to long term gamble with throw away money, and I find stock and mutual fund charts more entertaining as far as a research heavy hobby that might net some extra pounds, for real investment I turn to index funds.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by feelix on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:14PM (#18878809)
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by rodonn on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:22PM (#18878900)
The key part of 'pay taxes with it' is that the debt you owe is denominated in the currency. While convenient to not have to manually sell the crypto first and then pay your taxes in dollars, you still face a lot of risk if the value of your crypto goes down. i.e. if I am going to own $1000 in taxes next year and I put $1000 under my mattress, then I will be able to pay my tax liability regardless of whether or not the dollar crashes in value. If I save that $1000 in bitcoin, I may not have enough to pay off my tax liability with that bitcoin.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by int_19h on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:07PM (#18880705)
Actually, the key part is acceptance, not denomination. There is an oft-cited theory that governments accepting currency as payment of debts incurred via taxation is what gives inherent value to fiat money. Thus, if governments accept BTC to pay for taxes, that should also impart some inherent value to it.

Of course, the theory may well be wrong, as evidenced by e.g. Somali shilling still being in use, even though there's no government backing it in any practical sense for decades.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by perl4ever on Friday January 11, 2019 @12:27AM (#18881222)
Somalia has a central bank and it seems to have restored the value of the shilling somewhat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Bank_of_Somalia

http://www.centralbank.gov.so/

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by int_19h on Friday January 11, 2019 @02:56AM (#18881700)
That's a very recent development, though, and keep in mind that the government behind it controls less than half of the country, and even that control is often nominal and transient (i.e. the local warlord is allied with the central government at that particular point in time). And the shilling kept circulating at relatively stable rates for quite a while even before the bank was revived.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by perl4ever on Saturday January 12, 2019 @01:02AM (#18889947)
It's not very recent. The shilling hit a low point in 2008 and appreciated by over 3000% from 2012-2014.

According to what I read the "stability" prior to the central bank was a result of an equilibrium between the value of a note and the value of the paper it was printed on. Since there wasn't a central government printing money, it didn't decline further, but tying up $100 in paper to represent $100 seems pretty suboptimal.

Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by AJ007 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:25PM (#18879513)
If you were to make a list of each cryptocurrency you could find, then you’d be somewhere are 99.99%. The people buying these things either don’t understand how Bitcoin works, or think they are going to get rich quick from the greater fool strategy.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by CryptoPunk on Friday January 11, 2019 @01:39PM (#18885722)
Cryptocurrency significantly reduces the risk and cost of attempting a scam, meaning if you're involved, you will be exposed to a huge volume of scam attempts. The result is that everyone in the market is very diligent about who they place their trust in, and anyone who's new to the space becomes that way before long.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by mrybczyn on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:47PM (#18878586)
I mean a currency that is primarily based on drugs, gambling, sex and cybercrime can't be all bad, can it?
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by coralreef on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:10PM (#18878772)
You didn't know that anonymity can be used for unlawful things along with lawful things?
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by berbec on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:51PM (#18880059)
Good argument. I don't see the outcry against VPNs and the nasty stuff you can download
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by solveit on Thursday January 10, 2019 @11:29PM (#18881017)
That's because they tried and failed miserably (kind of, they weren't tech-literate enough to even know what they should try, but they certainly tried very hard to try).
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by bausshf on Friday January 11, 2019 @08:02AM (#18883237)
Are you talking about the US dollar?
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by conmarap on Thursday January 10, 2019 @11:18PM (#18880968)
It was only natural that so many scams came out of the crypto space. It's an unregulated field that's attracting millions of US dollars. Plus, you could steal a bunch and get away with it.
Re:Ethereum: A number of hard forks turn out to be scams by vectorEQ on Friday January 11, 2019 @11:15AM (#18884480)
it's a people problem, not a money problem. if people put value into something, others will try to get as much of it as possible to make 'profit'. good luck solving that one. doesn't matter how you build your currencies, it's the value attached which causes human greed to become problem.