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Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by Barrin92 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:23PM (#18877702)
>because of cultural significance and whatnot.

No, because Miss Saigon is a fictional piece of work, as is Lolita. Committing a crime in a piece of fiction is obviously not equivalent to actual child pornography, just like showing an action movie isn't equivalent to footage of actual violent crime.

There is no blurry line here. Child abuse and child pornography are clearly defined terms. Justifying child abuse in a novel might be morally offensive, but is not a crime, abusing an actual child however, and publishing footage of it, is.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by dragontamer on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:41PM (#18877901)
> There is no blurry line here. Child abuse and child pornography are clearly defined terms. Justifying child abuse in a novel might be morally offensive, but is not a crime, abusing an actual child however, and publishing footage of it, is.

Okay, let me give an alternative situation then.

A 14 year old girl sends a sexual text message to her (also underage) boyfriend. In Minnesota, the 14-year-old-girl was charged with Child Pornography.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/juvenile-justice/minnesota-prosecu...

If you think morality is black-and-white, then you are going to cause issues to many people. There's nothing "black and white" about distributing child porn. There are unfortunately, a ton of gray areas.

Yes, there are clear-cut cases of CP that need to be banned. But you must ALWAYS be wary about the edge cases, lest you harm otherwise innocent people. A 14-year-old who sends naked pictures of herself to her friends is... well... objectionable, but it shouldn't result in a sex-crime on her permanent record.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by wolco on Friday January 11, 2019 @02:12AM (#18881583)
They could be charged by making sending pictures of themselves to themselves.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by MagicPropmaker on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:42PM (#18878522)
This is the way it must be. Otherwise an underage person could, say, send nude photos of herself to all her teachers, call the FBI, and have them all arrested while she faces no penalty. If simply having the file on your computer is illegal, then any creator of this content, no matter what his or her age, must be liable.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by DanBC on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:49PM (#18878600)
There's no public interest in prosecuting a 15 year old who willingly sends an image of themself to another 15 year old.

It's a fucking stupid thing for them to do, but criminal justice system isn't the solution for that.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by Fjolsvith on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:02PM (#18880420)
Except when the recipient forwards it on to his buddies and the picture then makes it into the Internet.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by DanBC on Friday January 11, 2019 @04:33AM (#18882046)
Even then you don't prosecute the person in the image, even if they took the photograph. You prosecute the people distributing the image.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by SllX on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:03PM (#18878716)
That is a fairly programmatic, not judicious, interpretation of how the law and morality intersect. Maybe the people involved, law enforcement and the courts are a bit better than mere computers. Just a thought.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by kiriakasis on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:58PM (#18878683)
Nope, if I hide cocaine in your house the crime is mine. If person X send person Y unsolicited CP with the intention of calling the police on them I am pretty sure X is committing a crime.

It might be hard for Y to prove this though.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by MagicPropmaker on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:25PM (#18878932)
That's not the way the law works with illegal pornography. There is no legal defense to possession.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by int_19h on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:15PM (#18880191)
To be more precise, in most jurisdictions, there's strict liability for possession of child pornography. Which means that mens rea, or even awareness of the crime, is not required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal)

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by hopler on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:50PM (#18878612)
So it's not the way it must be, if the existing insane laws are repealed.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by gammateam on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:54PM (#18878034)
Minnesota’s criminal statute would have absolutely nothing to do with any federal statute or any other state’s criminal statute

Good news! If you are rich enough to pay and keep paying your lawyers then you can move the case to the federal venue either immediately or in appeals court. Now we have a standardized venue to actually discuess any gray areas or lack thereof

That’ll be $2000 for this “hour” of work to afford your freedom, thanks

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by jkartchner on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:34PM (#18878437)
You can't "remove" your state criminal case to federal court. You've confused a civil case with a criminal case brought by the state.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by gammateam on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:29PM (#18880552)
Thats pretty interesting, it seems there have been some narrow circumstances for removal of criminal cases from state to federal venue but not a viable option like in civil cases
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by hirundo on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:44PM (#18877946)
> There is no blurry line here. Child abuse and child pornography are clearly defined terms.

In many places around the world it's clearly defined to include purely fictional depictions. It seems to be rare, but there have been convictions for possessing child pornography cartoons in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornogra...

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by kiriakasis on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:07PM (#18878750)
I believe in many places it is illegal to distribute even a novel with explicit CP.

A relevant note is the distinction between production, distribution and possession (both directly or indirectly) when talking about corner cases.

A 14 years old should not be incriminated of producing or possessing photos of his/her naked body, he or she could be incriminated of distribution in extreme cases (the cited case should not be one of these cases)

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by randomdata on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:28PM (#18877746)
> Child abuse and child pornography are clearly defined terms.

How well defined are they really? People have gone to jail for possessing cartoon imagery that depicts children in a way that is deemed pornography under child pornography laws. That does not match your definition of abusing an actual child and publishing footage of it. Such imagery is entirely fictional and seems closer to a story in a novel than a physical act that took place in the real world.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by magissima on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:38PM (#18877853)
We're not talking about sending people to jail, we're talking about blocking content from search engines. Whether or not you think it should be illegal to possess that imagery (which it is in many countries), it seems totally appropriate to block pretty much anything that could be construed as CP from search engines.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by randomdata on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:44PM (#18877943)
Indeed we are. It really doesn't matter what should or shouldn't be illegal, the topic at hand is what defines child pornography. It does not seem to have a clear cut definition, and is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Some believe fiction is absolutely child pornography (as we saw in such legal proceedings), others believe that it requires a physical human to be present to facilitate in the creation of the content. There is nothing to suggest that it is actually cut and dry. Are Lolita and Miss Saigon child porn? Depends on who you ask.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by megous on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:12PM (#18878232)
Parents photograph their naked children and put it on social media. It's clearly not CP, and good luck separating that from CP with a ML model.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by astura on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:24PM (#18878920)
They do?

If thats not CP it should be banned as a gross violation of the child's privacy.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by michaelmrose on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:26PM (#18879935)
Nudity and porn aren't the same thing. Porn is media intended to provoke sexual gratification. If you prefer porn is what the majority would consider material intended for sexual gratification.

Babies aren't sexual and they also don't as far as I can tell have any legal right not to have their parents take or share pictures of them. We could do well not to invent imaginary legal rights.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by astura on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:30PM (#18879962)
Huh? I didn't say it was illegal?

Posting naked photos of a baby on the internet is an awful violation of a baby's privacy, so it would not be allowed on my platform.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by dvdkon on Friday January 11, 2019 @01:20AM (#18881412)
Do you really want to be the arbiter of right and wrong in all these cases? A lot of people think naked baby pictures are fine. Who are you to tell them they're not? It seems to me you want to police the whole world to make what you think is indecent disappear. Guess who also has similar ideals? Hardcore islamists (not that I'm saying wanting to block search results and creating a totalitarian regime are the same thing, but the ideal is wrong in both cases, in my opinion).
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:42PM (#18878527)
> Committing a crime in a piece of fiction is obviously not equivalent to actual child pornography

That depends on the jurisdiction. In the USA it isn’t, in Australia fictions in certain media (eg anime) can be considered CP. Even porn with adults who just look young can be considered CP.

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by freedomben on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:01PM (#18880111)
> Even porn with adults who just look young can be considered CP.

That's terrifying. I can't think of a more subjective measure to codify into law than, "if she looks young." In the USA we already have a huge problem with subjectivity in interpretation of laws which allows our government/police to go after people they don't like (with real or imagined infractions).

Actually now that I think about it, I think that's what the state of Texas is doing to Cody Wilson. They're charging him with child molestation and child prostitution by saying that even tho he thought she was 18, she "didn't look like it." (not defending Cody, just stating that the USA may be no better at all in the subjective interpretation of law department).

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by DyslexicAtheist on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:15PM (#18878250)
I wonder how the future will classify AI generated content which depicting things like CP[1] but where none of the actors are real. We haven't quite crossed that threshold yet but wouldn't be surprised if something like this were to hit the headlines some time very soon. Will people claim that this is a valuable surrogate to keep these sick people from acting on real victims or will we see claims that it encourages them (like terrorists get radicalized etc).

[1] but not only. other genres like snuff would come to mind. How about an AI generated take on "A Serbian Film"

Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by rebane2001 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:35PM (#18877824)
The line wouldn't be blurry if you were given 10 pictures and asked to sort them by what's allowed and what's not. We don't have 10 pictures here, we have at least billions and we can't sort them by hand. Using an automatic filtering system is where the blurry line problem comes in.
Re:Microsoft Bing not only shows child pornography, it sugge... by kiriakasis on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:16PM (#18878844)
Sadly the line would still be blurry.

Fully clothed photos of kids are CP depending on the site where you find them for example. It is "easy" to block everything that could be CP, but that would include photos of children in diapers on Facebook posted by their parents.

It is easy to classify the more horrible stuff, but as soon as you make a line you can be sure some shithead will search for a way to blur it.

In more general terms this is why many things should be at least a bit subjective. Clean-cut definition are too easy to abuse.