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Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:01PM (#18847014)
Ultimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation. I’m all for supporting a government that supports the people. From my perspective we don’t have this and haven’t had it for some time. Other developed nations have better infrastructure, better social support system, near free higher education, free at point of contact healthcare systems. What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced warfare system ever.

EDIT: I’m not complaining about the level of military spending or healthcare spending. I’m pointing out that from my perspective our return on taxation is a great military and a crappy healthcare system. Hence I’m not happy about the returns on taxation.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by greesil on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:13PM (#18847186)
I agree that we don't get a good return on the taxes we pay. But, defense spending is about 1/6 of the federal budget at around 3% of GDP. For comparison medicare/medicaid combined is about 5% of GDP. Apparently France spends 4% of GDP on healthcare total, not just for old people. I think the biggest problem with our system is not necessarily that defense spending is so high, but that our healthcare system is so inefficient.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by megaman8 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:15PM (#18847221)
much of the defense spending is hidden in other areas: like Dept of energy, dept of veteran affairs, homeland security, etc. So it's a lot bigger than it looks.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by tannerwj on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:53PM (#18847792)
Where could I see numbers on this?
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:04PM (#18847949)
Isn’t the CIA, NSA, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Coast Guard (which is not part of the Pentagon), etc. all part of national defense? You can look up the public portion of their budgets online. The VA should be counted too since it’s a cost of national defense.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by muzz on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:35PM (#18848369)
Also things like interest on the amount of debt used to fight wars
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by greesil on Monday January 07, 2019 @06:43PM (#18851492)
Probably dwarfed by borrowing required for the tax cut now.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by jazzyk on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:12PM (#18849482)
Your conclusion is correct, your numbers are not - the spending gap is much higher (which supports your point even better)

US spending is over 18%, almost double the cost in France. Even the oh-so-expensive Switzerland spends ~12% of its GDP on healthcare.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184968/us-health-expendi...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-spending/u-s-healt...

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by rootusrootus on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:05PM (#18847060)
I would say it is dissatisfaction with the government's contract with the citizenry, combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the population has no interest in progressing. So people who can leave for somewhere that more closely aligns with their values are doing just that.

I have family here and I love the United States, I'm staying, and I hope we can make some more progress, but I totally understand why some people don't want to wait that long.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by diob on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:16PM (#18847227)
Right, our government is now setup to allow minority rule unfortunately. I can't foresee us moving forward when states beyond the coasts are insistent on moving backwards to a mythical idealized time.

My main reason for wanting to leave right now is the state of healthcare. I already have one "preexisting condition" out of my hands, it's called sleep apnea. I'm in shape, it's just a matter of my anatomy. My costs are relatively affordable (aside from never bothering with another sleep study since that's seen as not covered), a couple hundred dollars a year. Maybe a large purchase of a new machine every 5 to 10 years.

But I realize that even though I'm saving large chunks of money thanks to America paying more, I'm one terrible illness away from having it wiped out. I'm not a gambler by nature, so it doesn't really appeal to me. Pay me less, give me subsidized healthcare, real time off, etc. Basically, treat me more humanely.

I could care less about money I may lose due to tragedy at any moment. Especially when that crazy inner state minority will simple lambast me for not planning appropriately for my illness regardless of how much of my savings I pour into it (why didn't you save a million dollars for your ongoing cancer treatment you bum?).

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:29PM (#18847425)
Do you not have health insurance? Why would a single illness cost you a million dollars?
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by howard941 on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:41PM (#18848452)
Because of his preexisting condition. Even if insured, when all of the ACA prohibitions against preexisting condition exclusions are wiped away as the political wind is portending then the OP will be one illness away from a financial wipeout.

When I was in my 30s I had a blood test come back with what the doc said was moderately high cholesterol (185?). From that point on all of my policies excluded illnesses, diseases, treatments and medicines that were in any way connected with high cholesterol.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by tivert on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:54PM (#18848607)
> Because of his preexisting condition. Even if insured, when all of the ACA prohibitions against preexisting condition exclusions are wiped away as the political wind is portending then the OP will be one illness away from a financial wipeout.

Honest questions:

Weren't pre-existing condition exclusions only relevant if the condition was diagnosed when the person was uninsured and only when that person was buying an individual policy (so you could still get coverage through an employer group policy)?

Also, even if the condition was diagnosed while the person was uninsured, what would happen if they subsequently spent a long period of time insured under a group policy? When the person went back to the individual market, they'd have a long paper trail of being insured from the group policy. Would a new individual insurer really be able to figure out that, years ago, the person was uninsured years ago when they were diagnosed?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by howard941 on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:12PM (#18850146)
> Weren't pre-existing condition exclusions only relevant if the condition was diagnosed when the person was uninsured and only when that person was buying an individual policy (so you could still get coverage through an employer group policy)?

I can't speak for anyone other than my Floridian self but my hypercholesterol diagnosis was while insured on a group policy and became a pre-existing excludable condition when I set up shop on my own and bought an individual policy.

> so you could still get coverage through an employer group policy

There was no employer to offer me group coverage. It was my way or the highway.

> Also, even if the condition was diagnosed while the person was uninsured, what would happen if they subsequently spent a long period of time insured under a group policy? When the person went back to the individual market, they'd have a long paper trail of being insured from the group policy. Would a new individual insurer really be able to figure out that, years ago, the person was uninsured years ago when they were diagnosed?

I hear you, but really all it takes is a question on the insurance application to find out the info. If I'm asked I answer honestly not only because it's a felony to do otherwise but because false answers on insurance policy questionairres is an easy win for the insurance company that wants to avoid claim payment. If I were to lie though it wouldn't be a walk in the park but finding out the adverse info is definitely do-able and so long as preexisting conditions can be excluded there's a tremendous monetary incentive to find this stuff out. They can tap into the place that tracks health issues for life insurance companies (the Medical Info Bureau) to find out even more or simply write all of my physicians and ask them directly.

My wife is in the same boat. She has a thyroid issue and her policy came with an exclusion for everything associated with hyperthyroid. This is pretty much the entire book of morbid cardiovascular conditions.

At this point I'm job locked: If I leave (or am laid off) the individual market will exclude the hell out of both of us.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by Djvacto on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:41PM (#18847602)
Looking at his comment, he said 'Terrible illness' which implies something more severe than just the flu.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by diob on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:51PM (#18847760)
Right, and there's no guarantee I'd be able to keep my job (and hence my health insurance) during that scenario.

Having my illness would cause the rates for health insurance to sky rocket for my company the following year. I wouldn't blame them for letting me go since that would cause hardship for the rest of my coworkers.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by umvi on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:10PM (#18847144)
> combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the population has no interest in progressing

Different people have different definitions of "progress". Your definition of progress might not align with mine. That doesn't mean I am not interested in progress, just that I believe we should be progressing in a different (possibly even diametrical) direction than you believe we should be progressing.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:11PM (#18848042)
That's fine to say, but it ignores the problem of minority rule. If we all take a big vote, and most people want Progress(A), you don't have the ethical right to jump up and down or put a gun to the rest of our heads insisting that we instead do Progress(B).

Maybe Progress(B) is a lovely thing for you. The rest of us, however, don't like it very much, and didn't vote for it.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by jedmeyers on Monday January 07, 2019 @05:02PM (#18850636)
If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either, even if your plan is to equally distribute it for the “good of everyone”. For some people who went through the hell of communism it is the opposite of progress.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 07, 2019 @07:09PM (#18851669)
>If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either,

Hold on, let me check something...

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

I rather think we do have that right. Human rights for minorities are indeed a thing, but they aren't a thing that gives you (or anyone else) a fully general right to rule over the majority, nor a fully general right to treat the government as illegitimate when it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by jedmeyers on Monday January 07, 2019 @07:51PM (#18851886)
> it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas.

So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct?

Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 07, 2019 @08:35PM (#18852208)
>So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct?

Yes, of course. If enforcing the law as written involves doing Bad Things, the law should be changed, but if we aren't democratically deciding to change it, then it's on us what it involves.

Mind, there's been plenty of support for the DREAM Act for quite a while now, so...

>Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy?

The basic ethical grounds for representative democracy, without which the US government has no legitimacy, no matter how many pieces of paper anyone waves around.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by jedmeyers on Monday January 07, 2019 @08:53PM (#18852355)
Majority rule is not “the basic ethical grounds for representative democracy”. US was set up as a constitutional republic specifically to limit the simple majority mob rule.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 07, 2019 @10:56PM (#18853016)
>Majority rule is not “the basic ethical grounds for representative democracy”.

Yes, it very much is.

>US was set up as a constitutional republic specifically to limit the simple majority mob rule.

The US was set up to preserve the power of the rural landowner class. It wasn't intended to be a representative democracy initially, and has only moved imperfectly towards representative democracy over time, with great struggle.

Rule by a minority elite claiming the mantle of national authenticity as its exclusive possession is, ethically speaking, far less legitimate than that of plain, old-fashioned majorities.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skrowl on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:55PM (#18847815)
Clearly OP means agreeing with his agenda here.

Anything contrary to his agenda is not progress, but going backwards. "around half" is a veiled hit on people who voted for President Trump.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by rootusrootus on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:19PM (#18848162)
No, I just mean progress. We have data, we could be using it to improve. But instead, we watch other countries leapfrog us in quantifiable ways while we point fingers at each other and accuse 'the other side' of being the real problem. And we are so enamored with ourselves being special that we won't even consider ideas from other countries which have successfully dealt with similar problems. It is very frustrating. And I don't care which side politically you are on, you are only part of the problem from my perspective if you care more about winning than actually making better policy.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by Consultant32452 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:11PM (#18847155)
Everyone wants progress. Just not everyone agrees with you on what progress looks like.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by ariwilson on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:51PM (#18848581)
Blaming the people is never productive; instead engage with the people. Don't forget to throw out the bums in office (see, mid-term elections).
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:27PM (#18847381)
>with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the population has no interest in progressing.

Has it crossed your mind that this half might not see what you want as progress but instead destructive?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by rootusrootus on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:21PM (#18848193)
If you simply see it politically, then sure. I see progress as a fairly objective goal. We may differ on how, but surely we can agree on the facts and what the definition of better is.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by leereeves on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @09:15AM (#18855605)
A policy that's objectively better for one person might be objectively worse for another. I know several people whose health insurance became worse (more expensive for less coverage) due to Obamacare.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by rootusrootus on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:09PM (#18859165)
I believe that the government should focus strictly on macro outcomes. I.e big goals, like "more people covered by medical insurance" or "average life expectancy increase", etc. It's impossible at a high level to ensure that every last person gets a better outcome.

I'd also say that if anybody really did end up with more expensive policies with worse coverage, that's a continuing fault with our insurance companies. If they were functioning correctly, then an increase in policy premium after ACA would indicate that the consumer was not accurately assessing their own risk previously and thought their coverage was far more extensive than in reality. I haven't yet found an actual example of someone who really did get less coverage that cost more. Inevitably they are comparing an old plan that had basically no actual, effective coverage to one with far fewer loopholes.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:40PM (#18860486)
>I'd also say that if anybody really did end up with more expensive policies with worse coverage, that's a continuing fault with our insurance companies. If they were functioning correctly, then an increase in policy premium after ACA would indicate that the consumer was not accurately assessing their own risk previously

Nope, it means that the risk pools changed and now everyone has to pay significantly more because they are paying for people with existing conditions. The only people that didn’t end up paying more are the ones who receive subsidies they didn’t previously.

The old plans were better if you didn’t have a condition because you were pooled with cheaper people to care for. Loophole reduction only plays a small part in that.

ACA changed health insurance from being insurance into a country-wide health program for already sick people. Insurance is a terrible vehicle for that. It was a horrible compromise and single payer would have been worlds better once you’re already down the path of that level of government intervention.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:34PM (#18860437)
I see using nuclear to the fullest extent possible to displace all coal, gas, and wind generation as progress.

This view is directly at odds with the “progressive party” in the US that is convinced the only way forward is prayers that we will come up with an energy storage solution to make up for the instability of wind/solar while continuing to allow nat gas and coal in the interim while climate change marches on.

In my views, every time the government increases taxes and starts more individual and corporate welfare programs, that is the opposite of progress because it’s very rare that the government executes something effectively with self sustaining income.

Cap and trade is progress. Random bans on industries are not. And on and on.

So yes, we can certainly agree on facts, but I don’t think many people can agree on what the definition of better is because that’s definitely subjective.

Cortez and Sanders were elected on socialist platforms and they want nothing but massive government expansion of welfare programs that they see as “progress” and “better”. Their proposals so far have massive funding flaws and/or are ripe to fail in a short period of time (in my view) so I don’t see them pushing progress or anything better.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by happytoexplain on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:39PM (#18847577)
While this is a valid question, most people understand the fundamental concept of "disagreeing", even if they've considered the opposition and rejected it (perhaps justly, perhaps unjustly, by some metric). Therefore, I'd try to expand on this thought - your single sentence is a little hostile and curt. It doesn't really lead anywhere.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by benj111 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:24PM (#18847331)
"aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation"

Ironic as American expats are still taxed, unless they give up citizenship.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-liv...

https://www.americansabroad.org/us-taxes-abroad-for-dummies-...

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by duaoebg on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:38PM (#18847567)
The reduction in tax is still substantial.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by benj111 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:44PM (#18847661)
I've heard scare stories of dual nationals who have never been to the US being taxed.

As far as I'm aware, its the only nation that taxes its citizens in that way.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by muzz on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:52PM (#18847773)
How is there any reduction in tax if expats must still pay US taxes?
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by duaoebg on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:59PM (#18847873)
There is foreign earned income exclusion. Which stops at $100K but this is still a lot for many people.

I’m not American so it’s not my problem, but it’s what I hear from other tax exiles.

My parents are American but given the choice for me to become American I declined due to the whole tax issue.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by walrus01 on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:14PM (#18848096)
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

there is a "physical presence test" where you need to be resident outside the USA for 330 days or more a year.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by uncoder0 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:06PM (#18847073)
We really need to address the absolute cost of healthcare in this country before we can make any progress on nationalizing any portion of it. The pure costs are outrageous. We spend ~$10,000 per capita in 2017 vs ~$6,000 in Norway which has a similar per capita GDP. (PPP adjusted https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...)
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by omegaworks on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:17PM (#18847237)
Absolutely, and that's one of the rationales for incentive changes enacted under ACA. Before ACA, health systems were incentivized fee-for-service, not outcomes based. Under ACA we shifted to try to offer Americans options for preventative care, to avoid the extreme costs of emergency services. According to the same site[1] cost growth has come down as more people take advantage of their coverage.

1. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spe...

Things like cost controls and universal coverage are synergistic. People with coverage will seek earlier, cheaper remedies over waiting to the last minute expensive emergency care.

Republicans and conservative Democrats have allied to sabotage the ability for universal service to control cost. From the abandonment of the Public Option in the ACA marketplace, to disallowing Medicare Part D from negotiating with drug manufacturers for lower prices. We've been effectively hamstrung, but that means there's plenty of low-hanging fruit.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by uncoder0 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:25PM (#18866624)
Yeah I was definitely hoping for a more aggressive overhaul in the cost side than what we saw with ACA but, it seemed to play out in typical DC fashion once the lobbyists got their teeth into it.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by CydeWeys on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:16PM (#18847231)
Nationalizing it is the single biggest possible step towards getting costs under control.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by assblaster on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:12PM (#18847173)
Actually that's not that bad for the United States since the obesity rate in the US is 4x that of Norway.

If the US got its obesity rate under control, we could save a lot of money (less hypertension, less diabetes).

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by imnotlost on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:22PM (#18847302)
The US health care system is a very well run billing machine with average (compared to other developed nations) health outcomes as a lucky side-effect.

I pay $6000+/year in health insurance in the US + deductibles + co-pays + + + and I don't even know if they'll cover me when shit really hits the fan - but hey, I'll get a flu shot "for free".

Check profit margins for companies in the health care space, they're pretty good.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:28PM (#18847395)
Do you have any studies that you can point to that support this view? It’s OK if you can’t or don’t. I’ve heard this point of view often but it doesn’t jive with my anecdotal experience.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by assblaster on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:31PM (#18848326)
Diabetes and hypertension both increase the risks of coronary artery disease, cerebrovascular disease, renal disease, peripheral vascular disease, blindness, heart chamber enlargement and failure, localized infections, decreased wound healing requiring increased post-op surveillance and complications, obstructive sleep apnea (obesity) and its associated problems including pulmonary hypertension and heart failure.

As you can see, obesity is a leading risk for all these problems.

We need to fix obesity.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:42PM (#18848465)
Yes we’d save a lot of money but do you have studies to show that fixing obesity would mean that we’d spend much less per capita on healthcare than we currently do? And by much less I mean get to Norway levels of per capita spending on healthcare.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by cowpig on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:06PM (#18847078)
Somehow I doubt that most people are thinking of where they want to live in terms of "returns on taxation"
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by daenz on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:11PM (#18847160)
Maybe not directly, but that's the cause. Most people want to live somewhere clean, with low crime, good infrastructure, and jobs. Most cities have tax-funded programs for all of those things. If they aren't on par, then there's two culprits: a) not enough tax dollars, b) taxes aren't being used effectively. Personally, I think it's almost always the latter. You can look at the historical effectiveness of most programs, and coincidentally, they seem to get less effective as more money becomes available.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by muzz on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:01PM (#18847902)
There are other things that governments do besides tax and spend. Things like individual and civil rights and freedoms, etc.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by max76 on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:25PM (#18848236)
The United States doesn't have a monopoly on liberty and civil rights. 45% of all countries are "free" using The United State's own definition of the term [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by muzz on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:38PM (#18848411)
Indeed, seeking particular rights and freedoms might be a reason to live outside the United States.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by howard941 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:18PM (#18847269)
It's not clear where the emphasis on taxation is coming from. It's not in the underlying article and the polling shows only two wealth categories.

Based on the data it's age that determines whether or not to leave the US, which makes sense since there'd be shallower roots to leave behind.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by tick_tock_tick on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:18PM (#18847264)
People contently use this false dichotomy around military spending to avoid acknowledging that we spend just as much or more on health care and other social services per capita as the other western nations. How we spend that money is just horribly inefficient!

We can have both the most advanced military and a solid social system if we can figure out how to get our social spending return on investment close to other western nation. Universal Health care would be a big step. Other stuff to look at is collapsing the number of social services agencies down to a more reasonable numbers, not removing the benefits. Actually auditing our system to figure out what is and what is not working rather then allocating money based on political appearances.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by wwweston on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:30PM (#18847448)
> How we spend that money is just horribly inefficient!

Well, it depends on what your goal is.

If it's to improve population-wide health care outcomes, then yes, we do a worse job than many other first world nations.

If it's to allow for a, ah, "vibrant" set of industries who can benefit from capturing social spending while providing mixed outcomes which we justify by enshrining the fundamental attribution error under the banner of "meritocracy" then perhaps we're being efficient after all.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:21PM (#18847291)
There was no false dichotomy in what I wrote. Our return on taxation is a horrible healthcare system and an extremely effective military. I mentioned nothing about level of spending. I mentioned the returns on said spending. Of corse we could have a powerful military and a good healthcare system but we don’t. We have the former but not the latter.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:35PM (#18847513)
It’s an implied false dichotomy. There is no reason to mention the military spending otherwise.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:47PM (#18847702)
I didn’t mention military spending or any other spending. I mentioned returns on taxation. What we get in return for our taxes in the U.S. is an overly expensive healthcare system, overly expensive education system, etc. and the only thing that really shines is the military. Hence, I’m disatisfied with the returns on taxation.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by jedmeyers on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:03PM (#18847036)
> What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced warfare system ever.

You get this in Canada as well, they just don’t pay for it - US taxpayers do.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by endorphone on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:09PM (#18847126)
In WWII Canada had the world's fourth largest air force, fifth largest navy. Canada was involved in WWII more than two years before the United States joined.

You keep the military for the times, or at least most countries outside of the United States and its absolutely outrageous military spend does. If you think the US went to Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam for Canada (or countless exercises throughout the rest of the world, usually to prop up whatever the favored dictator was, and to promote US interests), or that Canada owes US taxpayers for that, you're profoundly mistaken (though Canada went heavily into Afghanistan for the United States, the single time NATO was actually invoked for defense).

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by alpinewinter on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:34PM (#18847487)
The US exports variants of a lot of military hardware for sure, but it still keeps the cream of the crop tucked away, such as the F-22.

Don't think for a second the US military hasn't planned for having to wage war against a country that it's outfitted with it's own technology. Many exported items have reduced capabilities, and lack the communications systems that allow information sharing between all military assets. Information at the front line is what wins battles.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by tjr225 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @01:02AM (#18853601)
Do you have any sort of evidence for these claims? This all sounds a little bit wild and "feely."
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by blhack on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:06PM (#18847081)
Most of Europe, and most of Asia too.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by axaxs on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:12PM (#18847174)
I think this hits the nail on the head. I don't like our healthcare system, daycare like school system, lack of mass transit, and defense spending. In theory, of course I'd like to move to another country that better serves its citizens. Will I? Very doubtful. But as long as the government fails its people, a lot of them are going to -want- to leave.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by saosebastiao on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:29PM (#18848302)
I'm well into the ~16% mentioned in this article, and you hit exactly on the reason why. Other countries may pay 10-20% more for their governments, but they are getting 100-200% more value from it.

We pay 4-10x the price of comparable first world countries for basic infrastructure like water, roads, and transit. We already pay more per capita for Medicare than most countries spend on universal health care. 15% of my earnings immediately go into a social welfare system that will be insolvent before I'm 50 years old. And even though our military has the best technology and funding in the world, we can't win wars against AK47s, IEDs, and Toyota Hiluxes. Paying taxes in the US is like throwing cash into a dumpster fire.

The sad thing is that due to tax rules on expat earnings, I can't just vote with my feet, I have to vote with my citizenship. That may not be the end of the world (I'm already on the path to dual citizenship with an EU country), but its a bit like getting a divorce because your husband spends too much on beer: it has to get really bad before it gets to the point of divorce. And for me, it's almost there.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by maxerickson on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:07PM (#18847088)
Federal healthcare spending is much larger than military spending:

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_...

(from https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... )

It's unfortunate the chart includes social security, which isn't quite tax and spend the way most of the rest of the federal budget is.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by PakG1 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:12PM (#18847168)
The important question is not whether the spending is high. The important question is whether the spending is effective.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by maxerickson on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:50PM (#18847746)
Yes, that was my point. It isn't that we don't have well funded public programs, it's that we don't bother with sensible regulation.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by Brakenshire on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:13PM (#18847177)
The US actually spends as much public money on healthcare as many other countries with universal heathcare, it’s just that it is spent very inefficiently.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by the_watcher on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:08PM (#18847107)
To most people, Social Security is seen as a tax, since it comes out of your paycheck in the form of a "Social Security Tax".
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by CydeWeys on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:15PM (#18847210)
To most people it is a tax, because you're paying it but not getting any benefits from it (yet). This applies generally to any form of public spending that only benefits some smaller segment of the population.

The same for Medicare; everyone pays the payroll tax but most don't get to use it. We'd have more personal sense of investment in our social programs if they helped people more widely, e.g. everyone of every age can use the healthcare they're being taxed for in countries that have nationalized it.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:13PM (#18847182)
It's also an unusually regressive tax, because it's flat rate, which isn't that bad if what it funds is progressively delivered (i.e. paid out the same to everyone rather than based on how much income you had), but it isn't. And then on top of that there is an income cap above which you don't pay any more.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:23PM (#18847324)
It’s paid out based on how much you contributed. Flat rate doesn’t mean everyone pays the same thing, it means same percentage.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:42PM (#18847633)
That's the problem. Progressive means taking from the rich and giving to the poor. It's possible to do that with flat taxes when they pay for a uniform benefit, so everyone pays 20% and everyone receives $10,000, because paying 20% is $50,000 for someone with a lot and $5000 for someone with a little.

Social security doesn't do that. The rich get back everything they put in. Or more when you were forced to put money into social security and then couldn't use it for healthcare, then receive nothing because you don't live long enough, while the rich people who outlive you get the money you paid.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by the_watcher on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:05PM (#18857149)
Progressive (when used in the context of taxes), does not mean this. It means that contribution increases progressively with income. What you are describing are redistributionary taxes. A flat tax of 10% on all incomes could still redistribute all of what the rich pay to the poor.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @02:41PM (#18858864)
> Progressive (when used in the context of taxes), does not mean this. It means that contribution increases progressively with income.

That is the same thing once you account for where the tax money goes, which it is unreasonable not to do.

For example, if you have a 25% tax that pays for a $10,000 UBI, there is a single marginal rate but the tax system is progressive because the effective rate is a curve. Someone at $20,000 pays $5000 and receives $10,000, net $5000, an effective tax rate of -25%. The effective tax rate is 5% at $50,000, 12.5% at $80,000, increasing asymptotically to 25% with higher incomes.

Compare this with a version of social security that charged higher marginal rates for higher income people, but all benefits are still paid out in proportion to what each person paid in multiplied by their lifespan. There is nothing progressive about this -- if everyone lived the same amount of time it would be exactly breakeven, and since in practice the rich live longer it thereby becomes regressive.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:47PM (#18860540)
Counting in lifespans is pretty senseless though. If your beef is with that then it would be much more effective to charge women more for social security than men. Smokers should get a social security discount along with obese people. Use actuarial tables from life insurance companies if you want it to be fair based on what people are expected to get out of it. Finally, the rich don’t really outlive the middle class by enough of a factor to matter (especially compared to the ones above).
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by RhysU on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:01AM (#18862402)
> The rich get back everything they put in.

Source?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:18PM (#18847263)
This would be the return on investment aspect of my comment. We spend massively more per capita on healthcare and yet not everyone is covered and it isn’t free at point of contact. It’s easy to design an inefficient system when the goal is not actually caring about the people.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by tivert on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:56PM (#18847825)
> Ultimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation.

No, not at all. In the US, it's not uncommon for partisans to threaten to "move to Canada" if the party they oppose wins the election. Here's are some examples (http://fortune.com/2016/11/08/election-move-canada-trump/).

All this indicates is that some people are dissatisfied with the results of an election and the party and politicians who are in power.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by ergothus on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:09PM (#18847122)
While I agree with the general sentiment, I think this stresses an emphasis on taxes that isn't right. Do you think these people would still be unsatisfied if the tax rate was 0%? I do.

Dissatisfaction with the govt does not necessarily mean dissatisfaction with the return on the investment of taxes. I want kids to be educated, people to be healthy, and that desire doesn't change if my tax rate is 0% or 80%. Sure, there's a point at which I think that taxes aren't the answer, but the root desire is not about taxes, they are merely a means to an end.

Many of the libertarian-leaning folks here will have a very different view of the above, but I think that would be apples and oranges - they view govt as either inefficient or unjust, but the issues in this article are different, about effectiveness and functioning.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:35PM (#18847508)
> Dissatisfaction with the govt does not necessarily mean dissatisfaction with the return on the investment of taxes. I want kids to be educated, people to be healthy, and that desire doesn't change if my tax rate is 0% or 80%. Sure, there's a point at which I think that taxes aren't the answer, but the root desire is not about taxes, they are merely a means to an end.

The issue is about efficiency. If you pay $2000 in taxes, you want to be getting >=$2000 in value for it. If you have to pay $5000, the value needs to be >=$5000.

The problem in the US is that government efficiency is a disgrace. We spend more on the military than most other countries combined and get... what, oil? We already have oil. And we need less of it, not more.

Our healthcare costs are outrageous and rather than do anything at all to actually address the cost, we just keep increasing the amount of tax money that gets thrown at it -- which only raises the costs further.

Social security is designed to sound progressive when it's really a transfer of wealth from poor to rich (because the rich live longer), and which deprives the poor of money during their working years that they could have used to send their children to college and other investments in the future, intentionally making the choice to retire later or rely on that investment they could (and now can't) make in their children to support them in their old age. Or for that matter have just invested the same money in a major index ETF, which has always had better long-term returns than social security to begin with.

If we were getting what we're getting now and paying half the taxes then everything would be fine, because then you don't have free healthcare but you do have the amount of money it costs to buy healthcare. It would also be fine if we were paying what we are now but getting twice as much. But we're not.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by ergothus on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:53PM (#18847779)
> If we were getting what we're getting now and paying half the taxes then everything would be fine

This is the statement I disagree with. Me having a few thousand extra $ at the end of the year does not give the homeless homes, does not allow me to comparison shop for healthcare, does not tell me if the drug at the store is actually real, does not ensure the schools are safe and effective. And I can't buy those by myself for that extra cash. This is how the people under discussion in this article are feeling.

We won't resolve libertarian principles and divides here, but WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THIS ARTICLE, my argument is that the dissatisfied people would not be content if the tax rate is zero, because they aren't dissatisfied about the tax rate. That there is a separate group of people that ARE dissatisfied about the tax rate can be true without being relevant to the first group.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:08PM (#18847991)
> And I can't buy those by myself for that extra cash.

Why not? If you had thousands of dollars a year in extra cash, you could donate to homeless shelters, pay the higher healthcare premiums, subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies, pay for good private schools or donate to scholarship funds, etc.

More to the point, you wouldn't need to pay for them to the extent that they already exist. There currently are homeless shelters and multiple health insurance companies and an FDA and mostly reasonable public schools. But they cost twice as much as they ought to or more. The healthcare market in the US is completely broken, but it's completely broken by inefficient regulations. Some of the costs of the inefficiency are paid in private health insurance premiums rather than tax dollars, but the problem is still the inefficiency.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by ergothus on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:26PM (#18848251)
> Why not?

Drifting off-topic, but the short version is that "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does and then making sure that it's more cost-effective to provide good value than it is to be deceptive about providing good value. I suppose I should get a few degrees to make sure I know how to evaluate these different areas. Hopefully I know which schools will teach me for real and not deliver empty bombastic lies. There's a reason that everywhere that does a good job at these (IMHO) have plenty of taxes.

Ultimately it's a war between where you want efficiency (private market) and reliability (govt).

All of which is mostly unrelated to the point I made above: The people under discussion are upset about results, not taxation. Even if you are 100% correct that giving them their tax money will allow them to fix the issues they are upset about, that's not the same as actually fixing them. And I, for one, pay taxes so that people with the right knowledge, authority, and economies of scale CAN fix those things. Giving me a tax refund is no different than refunding me for a product not delivered - it's better than losing the money, but I wanted the product.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:00PM (#18848697)
> "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does

That's kind of the point. If the government is doing a crappy job and you can get your money back, go take it to someone else who can do a better job. Maybe even your state or local government instead of the feds.

> and then making sure that it's more cost-effective to provide good value than it is to be deceptive about providing good value.

This is the exact problem we already have with the government. It isn't inefficient because nobody wants it that way, it's because of regulatory capture and corruption. The only way out of that is for the real party in interest (i.e. the citizens) to be paying attention.

But that doesn't work at the scale of the federal government, because a billion dollars in graft is a rounding error but it's still a billion dollars, so you get a billion dollars of incentive for corruption and the taxpayers only care about that specific thing as much as they care about 0.03% of their tax dollars. But the same is true for every other individual program, so corruption and waste is rampant.

The problem is that we keep comparing the US government to the governments of other countries when it's the individual US states that are at the scale of most other countries. The national healthcare systems in Europe aren't administered by the EU. They don't have a single military or school system. If they did they would have all the problems we have by trying to do it here -- that much centralization is too big a target for corruption and too easy to hide inefficiency in the complexity and scale. There is a point at which more scale no longer yields more efficiency and instead yields bureaucracy and inefficiency.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by baumandm on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:42PM (#18849170)
The idea that we can just take our tax dollars elsewhere and get better outcomes for less money doesn't seem realistic to me. At worst, these essential services just fall apart because not enough people would be willing to spend their tax refund on them. At best, we'll end up with the same thing because corporations are greedy and there's not really a good reason to have competition in pharmaceutical oversight.

Do you really want to have to shop around for a service that tells you which drugs are safe? You can't pick the cheapest because they probably cut corners or took industry kickbacks, but are you throwing away money if you pick the most expensive one? Do you just pick the average-priced option and hope they are trustworthy?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:45PM (#18859496)
> At worst, these essential services just fall apart because not enough people would be willing to spend their tax refund on them.

That would imply that these "essential services" are worth less to people than the cost it takes to provide them. Especially when the primary customers for such a service would be doctors, so the typical patient wouldn't even have it as an independent cost separate from the doctor's visit.

> At best, we'll end up with the same thing because corporations are greedy and there's not really a good reason to have competition in pharmaceutical oversight.

Why would you not expect competition? We don't have a monopoly provider for credit reporting or product reviews.

> Do you really want to have to shop around for a service that tells you which drugs are safe?

Do you really want to not be able to? What happens when the FDA approves Vioxx or the dozens of other drugs they've approved, often on the market for decades, that will give you a heart attack or liver damage or cancer or birth defects?

Or even worse (since you can't opt-out), when they fail the other way and don't approve the only drug that would save your life?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by ergothus on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:34PM (#18849088)
This will be my last comment on this thread as you've repeatedly failed to keep it topical, but I'm loathe to stop commenting and let your points appear persuasive by default. (the trap of the internet)

The issue is not that I trust the government, it's that I trust companies less. Governments have done a lot of bad things, and have done a lot of deception, but ultimately I trust their model of accountability more than I do companies. I'm not against being persuaded...but I don't see a lot of (any?) real world examples of this free-market utopia you describe, nor signs that it would come about. Instead, whenever govt reduces regulation too far, companies form monopolies, perform deceptive trade practices, and break the fundamental concepts of capitalism. That govt can over-regulate does not mean that (1) it must, nor (2) that it is.

All of which is irrelevant (again) to this article, which is stating that people are unhappy with the results. They aren't demanding tax cuts, they want the results. The primary obstacle to results in recent decades has not been the govt being bad at it's job, but people demanding the govt stop doing these things and cutting their funding to do so, then complaining about the govt's inability to fix things. These are the same people demanding bigger military funding and focus on oil, so the govt seems to be doing a decent job of doing what it's asked...it's just not what I and many others are asking for.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @01:58PM (#18858381)
> I'm not against being persuaded...but I don't see a lot of (any?) real world examples of this free-market utopia you describe, nor signs that it would come about.

The common examples are invisible because nobody talks about things that are working. For example, ever have to buy a box of screws, or a hammer, or a piece of rope? Sold in any hardware store at low, transparent prices with minimal regulation and good quality.

> Instead, whenever govt reduces regulation too far, companies form monopolies, perform deceptive trade practices, and break the fundamental concepts of capitalism.

This is the trap of ideological purism. You can argue about "less regulation is better" or "more regulation is better" as an abstract principle but that's not a way to evaluate an individual regulation. Applying either principle blindly and universally would require either total anarchy or total authoritarianism, which isn't what anybody actually wants.

It's possible to eliminate necessary regulations while still having too many (or the wrong) other regulations -- this is in fact what commonly happens in Washington, because the people who win there are the people with the best lobbyists, whether they want to pass/preserve bad competition-destroying regulations or eliminate good competition-protecting ones.

The advantage of a general principle of less regulation, especially at the national level in an environment known to be wasteful and corrupt, is that you can find alternatives for the national government not doing something -- whether it's markets or citizen organizations or local government. But if they waste your resources on corruption and bureaucracy, you can't recover them to use for something better, which interferes with anybody doing something better.

> All of which is irrelevant (again) to this article, which is stating that people are unhappy with the results. They aren't demanding tax cuts, they want the results.

You keep saying this, but the article doesn't say that at all. It says that people are dissatisfied, not why. And given the demographics of the most dissatisfied groups, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising to learn that they would e.g. prefer to reduce military spending.

And if you do want the results, wasting tax money still interferes with that.

For example, you mention homelessness, but that is inherently a local issue. There is a major homelessness problem in San Francisco but not so much in Kansas. And you also can't solve it in SF by building shelters in Kansas. You can't even solve it in SF by building shelters in Bakersfield. The relationship it has with inefficient military spending is that they come from the same tax base -- if the people of San Francisco are paying taxes to fund the military, those dollars can't be used (by the local government or the people themselves) to address homelessness there. Resources are scarce. When the government wastes them, you no longer have them.

> The primary obstacle to results in recent decades has not been the govt being bad at it's job, but people demanding the govt stop doing these things and cutting their funding to do so, then complaining about the govt's inability to fix things.

Only the federal budget hasn't declined. It has been ~20% of GDP since the end of WWII and still is. Which means it has been growing over time, since real GDP per capita is up. If they're providing worse or fewer services than they used to, it's because they're doing less with more, not because they have less in total.

> These are the same people demanding bigger military funding and focus on oil, so the govt seems to be doing a decent job of doing what it's asked...it's just not what I and many others are asking for.

That is the corruption and inefficiency. The people asking for that are defense contractors and oil companies and their workers, who have tons of (taxpayer-sourced) money to lobby with are not a small voting block because the scope of the expenditures is so massive that it employs a large number of people. It's exactly the sort of thing we could reduce in order to lower taxes without impacting the level of actual services provided.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by baumandm on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:59PM (#18849357)
I believe inefficiency is a red herring. I want the government to collect taxes to fund these efforts for two reasons:

1) So that we can have consistent, reliable, and widely-available services. 2) So the financial cost of society is spread fairly across everyone.

These are not guarantees the free market provides, because the market doesn't care about outcomes. Giving people tax breaks and hoping they donate it to homeless shelters will probably not help all the homeless people in the country. Switching the FDA to an opt-in subscription service will not prevent unsafe drugs from reaching consumers.

Sure I'd prefer government to run be as efficient as possible, but the goal isn't efficiency, it's better outcomes.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by duaoebg on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:55PM (#18847811)
I’m a tax exile. It has been the best decision I have ever made. I now save 10x more money each year. More and more Americans are turning up every year doing the same thing. I love America but the idea of paying American taxes is just too much from a fiscal, moral, ideological point of view.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by totalrobe on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:59PM (#18847876)
Where? Somewhere with decent jobs or do you need a remote gig?
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by duaoebg on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:07PM (#18847982)
I can’t say where I live as there are not enough expats here for me to stay anonymous but I can say work remotely for US companies.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by sgjohnson on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:05PM (#18847067)
Israel’s warfare system is far more advanced than the US.

Paid for by the US taxpayer of course.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by uncoder0 on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:07PM (#18847094)
When is the last time Israel was able to project power thousands of miles from it's border for nearly two decades? They have cool toys no doubt but, not really compares to our arsenal in human history.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by expathacker on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:11PM (#18847157)
Considering Israel is increasingly succeeding in making it illegal for Americans to protest them, I would answer your question with, "A minute ago?"
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by crankylinuxuser on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:35PM (#18847509)
This is a very strange area to discuss. And given the grayed out text, you've already been downmodded.

I had this, err, debate on Reddit recently. I am against the actions Israel is taking against Palestine. I view it as an atrocity in its own right. (There, I said my part. Please hear the rest out.)

From that, I said I was against the actions of violence. However I was attacked and called an antisemite. And it wasn't one person. It was quite a few. Something is going on, in that criticizing bad actions makes me construed as some sort of a hater (read: racist, sexist, ageist, nationalist, etc).

Obviously this also has other broad implications. If I disagree with practices of X, means I somehow hate X, even if I don't. I also see that similar viewpoint bandied here at HN, primarily with the once-a-month article about women and tech (which devolves into flamewars and large swaths of comments being disconnected by dang).

What's going on here? It's certainly a phenomenon which I'm seeing accelerated. Is this the growing pains of having hypercommunication across the world? Is this the problem of having up-to-the-second news?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by cazum on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:55PM (#18847818)
Watch "The Lobby" by The Electronic Intifada. It will shed a lot of light onto what you're describing.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:19PM (#18848159)
Oh yeah, "Electronic Intifada", a truly quality journalistic source that totally wouldn't tell you the Jews control America or anything.

God fucking damnit I hate these conversations. No, we don't manipulate the bloody government! We're less than 2% of the population. You know who passes all those laws "outlying" criticism of Israel, none of which have stood up in court, ever? Evangelical Christian Republicans.

Not American Jews or Israeli exiles, who, again, mostly vote Democratic and make up an insignificantly small fraction of the total population.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by alpinewinter on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:14PM (#18847191)
I disagree. I'm sure they have some cool toys, but they are not even in the same league in terms of overall military capability as the US. Their military is very specialized to deal with their specific circumstances. The US can conduct full-scale warfare anywhere around the globe, in the air, sea, on land, or in near-earth orbit.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by CydeWeys on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:19PM (#18847273)
Israel's Navy is a joke. They have nothing of any relevance except a handful of subs that might be capable of launching nuclear missiles. They have no destroyers, no cruisers, and most importantly, no aircraft carriers.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by josefresco on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:26PM (#18847372)
Aren't destroyers, cruisers and carriers considered antiquated in a modern / all out war? A few times a year, I see articles about how these slow moving, once mighty behemoths would make easy targets for newer anti-ship missiles / tech.

Nuclear armed submarines are probably their most important defensive asset.

So is Israel smart for not wasting money on a huge naval fleet?

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by CydeWeys on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:37PM (#18847547)
You can't project power across the globe with tiny ships. It becomes a matter of supply and ability to launch aircraft. You can't do the same things with a tiny ship as you can with an airwing.

Also, destroyers and cruisers are primarily used as missile-firing platforms anyway. And good luck countering enemy submarines without destroyers of your own.

And I think you are overestimating how large destroyers are. They're basically the minimum size necessary to have a warship that can sail the world's oceans independently.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by josefresco on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:52PM (#18847769)
> You can't project power across the globe with tiny ships

Agreed, and currently a modern Navy and it's ability to "projct power" is unmatched.

I just see a lot of commentary about how these large boats would be sitting ducks for modern missile systems. I'm not arguing that they are, just that it's been suggested and I'm wondering if Israel's decisions regarding defense are effected by this (probably not)

Your other two points were good as well - thanks for contributing.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by CydeWeys on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:46PM (#18848526)
They haven't proven to be ducks for modern missile systems yet, though. And we've used our carrier strike forces to devastating effect in many countries since WWII. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't see any major naval losses, and would have been impossible without the ability to project power and air supremacy clear across the globe that our Navy affords us. Sure, most countries don't need to be able to wage those kinds of wars and thus don't need such naval capabilities, but you're also not a first rate power if you can't do that.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by kortilla on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:47PM (#18847704)
There is no such thing as a modern all out war because of the massive US military and nukes.

Israel doesn’t need to worry about an invasion because it can fall back on the US.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by josefresco on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:54PM (#18847799)
> There is no such thing as a modern all out war

I generally agree. When I've debated this topic with others they basically say the carrier groups will be the first to go, but the response from nuclear submarines, and hidden fixed launch sites would be overwhelming.

Again, I'm not arguing this point, just suggesting that some may argue a strong Navy is antiquated.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by bliblah on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:56PM (#18847827)
I can't help but feel that is misguided because it sounds like the only solution is to lower taxes and make people happy.

From my experience some of the reasons people in my circle have left / wish to leave the US are the following:

- Race relations have become more divisive. If you speak spanish in certain parts of the country you are outright asked to provide proof of citizenship as though you are a second class citizenship. BLM has also made counter movements more bold with my black friends being harassed more by the police over trivial things.

-Gun Violence. I live in Florida and have had two close calls with gun massacres in Parkland and Orlando. I am reaching the age where if I were to have kids I would have to make a cost/benefit analysis of their chances getting shot down in cold blood.

- Politics have become more divisive than ever. I have friends on both sides of the political spectrum and it is becoming unbearable if you are anything but a left/right wing radical. Either way every election ensures that 50% of the population is outright mad at all times.

-General Cultural Differences. In the US you need to have a car to get anywhere and opportunities for employment feel very limited outside the mega city centers which tend to be very car centric and have no real culture outside of a few museums.

Obviously it would help if the government was better organized but I don't see how the points I raised would be solved outside of a huge shift in culture.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by muzz on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:00PM (#18847887)
I've seen reasons listed and also:

- Health Care. Before a few years ago, it was possible to be completely rejected by all carriers and not be able to buy it at any price. Even with insurance, a major illness or chronic condition can cost hundreds of thousands or even millions and wipe out a lifetime of savings.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by skh on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:11PM (#18848041)
That’s a fair point. I guess underlying my view on return on taxation is a belief that government ought to be there to support people. If Americans en masse could be convinced that this is what government ought to be about then the shift in culture you speak of might come about. Maybe then the public debate would be about what is efficacious and not the vapid vituperation that currently pervades American political discourse.
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by benmarten on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:14PM (#18847195)
I disagree for the opportunities we have here and the amount of taxes we pay it's pretty great!
Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by king_panic on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:12PM (#18847170)
Consider that most, if not all, of these developed nations can afford the services you listed because America has vowed to protect them with it's military power.

We spend on military force so they don't have to. The money they save is used for the services you listed.

We could renegotiate, which is what President Trump is doing, yet Id guess Americans want to have the worlds largest and most advanced military. "He with the biggest stick" mentality.

Re:Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S by normal_man on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:52PM (#18849925)
We spend on military to protect our economic and imperial interests abroad, and no other reason.