Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving Cars

Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by rjdagost on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:37PM (#18798960)

My brother lives in the neighborhood where this public beta testing is occurring. Folks, let me tell you from first-hand experience- these cars are terrible drivers. They are extremely hesitant, and because of this they cause traffic backups and delays in places where safety is compromised. You better hope you are not behind one when they perform a left-hand turn onto a busy street, because you are probably going to be waiting a while. They stop in seemingly random situations where human drivers would never stop, like a bicyclist standing way off the side of the road (talking to someone) with his bike pointing towards traffic. People have told me they've been in the middle of a turn behind a Waymo car, when all of a sudden the car just randomly stops for no apparent reason, leaving them stranded in the middle of the intersection as the light turns red. The default reaction for a Waymo car under any sort of ambiguity seems to be to just stop (literally) until the ambiguity resolves itself. Unfortunately this causes considerable confusion and traffic backups for human drivers.

I understand why Waymo is proceeding cautiously. But you really get the impression that the technology has a long ways to go. People in Chandler are pissed because this fleet of cars is a huge nuisance and is in fact less safe for human drivers who are sharing the road. I have no doubt that autonomous vehicles will be safer than human drivers someday, but that day is definitely not today.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by mattbreeden on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:16AM (#18799212)

This is pretty much spot on with my experience living in Chandler. I recently drove behind one of these for one mile and it managed to mess up three times. All three times it did exactly what you said: > The default reaction for a Waymo car under any sort of ambiguity seems to be to just stop (literally) until the ambiguity resolves itself.

In my experience (over one mile), this meant

1: stopping at the first intersection and not turning right (on a green light) until there were no cars going straight through it. 2: Then driving down the next there was a plastic grocery bag in the road. I thought about moving to the other lane anticipating the car not handling the obstacle well, but it wasn't slowing down so I decided not to. Then 10 feet from the bag it just decided to go 0-100 on the breaks and come to a complete stop - even though the bag didn't move, it fortunately decided to keep driving (not sure why it would think it had to full stop, but then without anything changing decide it was safe). 3: Left hand turn on a non-busy intersection. Zero cross traffic. Actual zero, not hyperbole zero. Not a single car coming. The waymo car just sat in the intersection through the entire light and 5+ seconds into the cross traffic's green light before the driver intervened.

I've found them very frustrating to be near in any situation that isn't straight driving. Even driving straight through construction zones is something they can't handle, and something we currently have a lot of.

I dunno, there wasn't really any point to my post, I just hate having to drive with them and wanted to vent.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by masonic on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:24AM (#18799229)

  The default reaction for a Waymo car under any sort of ambiguity seems to be to just stop

They do this every damn trip when they turn right from Central Expressway onto Castro in Mountain View. They wait for an unnaturally long break in traffic in both lanes, not just the near lane, to turn.

It's not even a very unusual edge condition, and they seem to be uninterested in fixing it.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by hardatwork on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:12AM (#18799043)

> People have told me they've been in the middle of a turn behind a Waymo car, when all of a sudden the car just randomly stops for no apparent reason, leaving them stranded in the middle of the intersection as the light turns red.

How does that work? My driving experience is limited, and only in Australia, but I can't think of a situation where I'd be allowed to enter an intersection if there is already a car ahead of me that's still in it.

Edit: I'm getting downvoted so maybe I didn't explain it right. Here's a quote from AU law: It is against the law to enter an intersection if you cannot drive through and into the road you plan to enter. However, when turning right, you can proceed into the intersection and wait near the centre of the intersection for the oncoming traffic to pass (as long as it is safe and the road you are turning into is clear). So from my POV it's pretty unfair to blame Waymo for getting stuck in a situation when it's only your law breaking that's making it so dangerous.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by rjdagost on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:29AM (#18799250)

I hear what you're saying about the letter of the law and all, but the fact of the matter is that at big intersections people don't drive that way in any country that I've been to. Waymo cars have an annoying tendency to just abruptly stop in the middle of intersections when they clearly have the right of way- scenarios when a human driver would rightfully not stop. So I do blame them for causing totally unnecessary traffic snags.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by PakG1 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:38AM (#18799097)

All you have to consider is the possibility that in some other regions of the world, that law doesn't exist and you're allowed to trail the car in front of you to make the turn you want. This is because for busy intersections, the closer you are to making the turn, the more chance you have of making it successfully. In general, there is greater throughput, and the safety risks are minimal because the yellow light signals for oncoming traffic to stop and gives enough time for everyone waiting to make the turn before it goes red (at least, that's what a yellow light is supposed to be, some people run it, and some people even run red lights).

I take it that in Australia, you drive on the left side of the road? In North America, you drive on the right side of the road, so the logic would apply when you're turning left, not right.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by bicubic on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:49AM (#18799130)

The rule has nothing to do with the handedness of the traffic. The rule comes down to 'do not enter an intersection unless you are 100% sure you will clear it before the lights change'. If you enter an intersection so late that it's about to turn red while another car is waiting to turn, you're at fault, not the car in front of you for not turning sooner. The red light transition timing is set to allow one and only one car to exit the intersection before the other side has a green light to enter.

The rule exists to prevent intersections from getting blocked by idiot drivers who enter too late and get stuck, which if not immediately cleared will cause gridlock to begin forming.

I find it a bit hard to believe that such a rule doesn't exist in America.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by PakG1 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:24AM (#18799228)

Seeing is believing. For example:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commutin...

In Ontario, the law doesn't say where cars should wait when waiting to turn left at a green light.

Apparently, that silence means a queue is allowed. In an e-mail, Ontario's Ministry of Transportation (MTO) tells Globe Drive that "more than one car is allowed to enter an intersection on a green light to line up to make a left turn, provided that the car's turn signal is on before it enters the intersection."

But, beware of local bylaws. If an intersection has a sign that says "Do not block intersection," you shouldn't be waiting inside it to turn, police say.

When I was driving (I don't really drive anymore), I found it common practice to queue in the intersection while waiting for a left turn.

Although, I suppose counterexamples exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdNWP6tmJHw&t=1m23s

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by mattbreeden on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:18AM (#18799216)

> The rule comes down to 'do not enter an intersection unless you are 100% sure you will clear it before the lights change'.

Yes, that is how it's supposed to work here. But when you enter because there isn't any traffic coming and you assume the waymo vehicle will do the obvious and turn left, and then it just stops, it's very easy to get stuck out in the intersection behind it - in a situation that wouldn't happen with any human driver.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by Operyl on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @09:55AM (#18800394)

Might I introduce you to South Florida then. Overly cautious 80+ year old drivers that cause accidents for being just too cautious/slow to react. That’s what the Waymo cars sound like right now.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by Animats on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:25AM (#18799441)

It's a local option in the US. Large cities are stricter about it. Some large cities paint a big box on intersections and ticket people for blocking the box.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by badpun on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:35AM (#18799458)

I have wondered how autonomous cars are supposed to handle a scenario where common sense dictates a slight violation of the traffic rules. For example, let's say that you're on a long, narrow road in the mountains where passing is forbidden for many miles. If there's a slow vehicle in front of you, such as a cyclist or a tractor, normally you wait for an opportunity for a safe pass and you take it. An autonomous car however, would just follow it, costing you many minutes of your time.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by abruzzi on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:42AM (#18800858)

A good example would be the area around Lancaster Pennsylvania. With Amish horse drawn buggies, people pass them on double yellow lines all the time. I don’t know if that is legal, but where I live in New Mexico we have a similar, if less common occurrence with farm equipment on the road—everyone passes them, though technically it’s a traffic violation. In some of these instances the speed difference is significant enough (10mph in a 50mph zone) that it could easily be more significant than 10 minutes on an hour drive.

It makes me wonder about traffic laws, and whether there will be a push to make these behaviors more explicit laws because there is potentially huge issue if Waymo or other companies program breaking laws into their driving code. Add to that that traffic laws in the USA are primarily state laws, but municipalities frequently have additional laws. The laws are all mostly the same, so I suspect autonomous vehicles will be programmed to the most restrictive of the laws.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by MRD85 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:40AM (#18799679)

I picture the future of self-driving cars will free up the human to do other things. If I have a desk set up in the car and am working/relaxing then I won't be too concerned if my 1-hour trip takes 1 hour and 10 minutes.

The big advantage will be longer trips. I live in Australia and we have huge distances to cover when driving between cities. If I can "work from car" for 8 hours while driving interstate and my employer pays me then the trip is essentially free for time.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by nikofeyn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:52AM (#18800905)

if only we had other technologies that could fill this role.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by MRD85 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:59PM (#18801933)

Are you alluding to public transport? That's a very different beast from what I've described. What I described is transport that:

Departs from your house on your own schedule with no unwanted stops.

Can have a full desktop setup within it. This isn't a car, it's a personal transportation device

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by Asooka on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:52AM (#18799586)

There's also this quote from the article:

"The trouble started, the couple said, when their 10-year-old son was nearly hit by one of the vehicles while he was playing in a nearby cul-de-sac."

Driving annoyingly cautiously is definitely unwanted. However, running over one child will see the technology shelved for about two generations, at least. So I can see why at this point the algorithms are still made such that the car stops at any sign of potential trouble.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by MRD85 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:43AM (#18799685)

2 generations appears too long. I'd say 8-10 years.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by MRD85 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:42AM (#18799682)

It's a race for profits, not safety. Someone is going to build this technology and it's a race to be the first and to collect the huge bounty. They don't care if they inconvenience you or cause a risk to your safety if it means they get to collect a ton of money.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by ehsankia on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:07PM (#18810202)

This directly contradicts how they are proceeding. The problem is that they are being too cautious and not rushing for profit, the way Uber did which lead to a death.

I personally much prefer a couple slow turns to someone dying.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by singularity2001 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @06:49AM (#18799834)

This reminds me of the old jokes: "If Microsoft built a car..."

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by diffeomorphism on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @09:25AM (#18800279)

> The default reaction for a Waymo car under any sort of ambiguity seems to be to just stop (literally) until the ambiguity resolves itself. Unfortunately this causes considerable confusion and traffic backups for human drivers.

Honestly, to me this just sounds like the waymo cars being better drivers than humans and not breaking traffic rules and endangering others. Just like complaining about new drivers or driving school drivers for being "too slow", while in reality they are just the only ones not going over the speed limit and not shoving into lanes hoping others will compensate.

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Re:Wielding Rocks and Knives, Arizonans Attack Self-Driving ... by rjdagost on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:51AM (#18800900)

We could go back and forth on this all day, but I don't think you would say these vehicles are good drivers if you have actually driven amongst them. I recommend that you follow one of these Waymo vehicles if you're ever in Chandler or in Mountain View. Being extremely hesitant is not good driving. Slamming on the brakes when a newspaper blows in front of your car is not good driving. Take a left turn behind one or go to a four-way stop behind one. I really hope Waymo improves.

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