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Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by jondubois on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:35PM (#18685048)
My understanding is that reserve banks create money out of thin air and then 'loan' it to governments. Then governments use the money to pay for public projects. A lot of the money ends up going to large corporations through significant government contracts, grants and subsidies.

When a government takes a loan from the reserve bank and puts it into circulation by giving the money to corporations to pay for public projects, the government is effectively diluting the value of everyone's money and giving it to corporations. This process creates public debt for which the government will need to take additional loans from the reserve bank to keep meeting the interest repayments; which will further dilute the value of everyone's wealth while increasing corporate wealth; and the cycle will keep repeating.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by ThrowMeDown01 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:16AM (#18687608)
> My understanding is that reserve banks create money out of thin air

"Money creation in the modern economy" (Bank of England, PDF)

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-...

Quote:

In the modern economy, most money takes the form of bank deposits. But how those bank deposits are created is often misunderstood: the principal way is through commercial banks making loans. Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money. The reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks:

• Rather than banks receiving deposits when households save and then lending them out, bank lending creates deposits.

• In normal times, the central bank does not fix the amount of money in circulation, nor is central bank money ‘multiplied up’ into more loans and deposits.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by arminiusreturns on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:33AM (#18687650)
This is semantics used to distract from the fractional reserve system in fiat currency, and is mostly false.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by ThrowMeDown01 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @04:14AM (#18687722)
I don't understand your comment, especially the "distract" part.

First, it isn't false at all, commercial banks create money, just as they say in the paper. Second, if you make the bold claim that the people of the Bank of England wrote a paper that is false you should provide more than a single sentence - especially when commenting here on HN.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by arminiusreturns on Saturday December 15, 2018 @11:34PM (#18691746)
Ok, since you rightly are asking for more details, I will try to explain my position. First, the disclaimer, I'm not an economics major, but I have read enough to understand things like the Bretton Woods system, the transition to the petrodollar, the transition period to the Federal Reserve, IMF and World Bank. So I'm just a layman with a particular interest in the higher-level view of how banking, in particular, central banking on a national and international scale, operates. I'm always open to learning more or being corrected, because it's a huge very insular group that's hard to get good info from on certain things (see: Libor scandal).

So, your original response is to someone who said their understanding was "that reserve banks create money out of thin air", so that is the foundation of our discussion at the moment. Your response on the surface feels like a refutation of that assertion, largely resting not on content necessarily but on the weight of authority that is the BoE. Essentially, what I was trying to say is that I don't think it refutes the person you were responding to, mostly because it is some very carefully crafted wording the obscures instead of reveals the truth of the matter.

A quick dissection would go as follows: while technically correct about loans showing up as deposits in accounts and thereby creating money, it ignores the basis for those loans, which is the fractional reserve system itself. It is FRB [1] that was what spawned the system of creating those deposits based on mathematical rules such as the fractional reserve rate [3] (which many people tend to think of as being 10%, though it is often not true these days). A very crude summary of that system is this; if all deposits (created money, as according to the BoE document) are 100% of a banks money, they are only required to actually have in reserve 10% of that. Therefore, the person you are responding to is essentially right. Banks create money out of thin air by entering it on systems, even when they don't actually "have" that money to lend. The reserve rate was thought of as a minimal protection required in order to assist in preventing runs on the bank if too many depositors requested their money at the same time (because, as per the reserve system, the bank doesnt actually have all that money at any one given time). So in America for example, this is the foundation of the Federal Reserve system, wherein member banks (not all banks are) then have promises of assistance from the regional reserve bank (of which there are 12, with NY Fed being the titular head of the system), so that if your local bank gets close to a "bank run" level, that regional reserve bank will inject funds to them temporarily in order to create stability, which was part of the original mandate of the Federal Reserve.

In the response you quote, the wording might lend one to understand otherwise, and that the fractional reserve system no longer works that way, especially with the patronizing ending sentence of the first paragraph about how "some economics textbooks" differ from how money is created today. I can practically hear some posh accent with an upturned nose dripping that sentence out with disdain. Silly plebs, trying to understand banking. The part about "distraction" is that it seems the bankers don't actually want people to understand how banking really works on the underside, as it is actually in their interest to obfuscate it for various reasons.

Given what I've said so far, I'm therefore not sure how the statement: "Rather than banks receiving deposits when households save and then lending them out, bank lending creates deposits.", nor the ending of the following sentence, "or is central bank money ‘multiplied up’ into more loans and deposits" can be actually accurate. I assume there is some word trickery I am failing to understand, (see: NSA on what "collection" means) because otherwise it seems flat out wrong. I am better versed though in the American system, so perhaps there is some nuance of the English system I am unaware of. (but it is worth remembering that the American system was founded upon the British/European system, when post 1907 Knickerbocker crash congress sent a delegation to hobnob with the central bankers of Europe to learn how they did things, which was largely the basis for the Aldrich and later Federal Reserve bills)

[1] https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/25783813-peter-palms/4549...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_requirement

[Bonus] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by ThrowMeDown01 on Sunday December 16, 2018 @02:40AM (#18692182)
Since you link to Wikipedia, you missed one that given the title seems more obvious - but which counters your opinion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Credit_theory_o...

> The fractional reserve theory where the money supply is limited by the money multiplier has come under increased criticism since the financial crisis of 2007–2008. It has been observed that the bank reserves are not a limiting factor because the central banks supply more reserves than necessary[19] and because banks have been able to build up additional reserves when they were needed.[20] Many economists and bankers now realize that the amount of money in circulation is limited only by the demand for loans, not by reserve requirements.

> ...

> Banks first lend and then cover their reserve ratios: The decision whether or not to lend is generally independent of their reserves with the central bank or their deposits from customers; banks are not lending out deposits or reserves, anyway. Banks lend on the basis of lending criteria, such as the status of the customer's business, the loan's prospects, and/or the overall economic situation.

[dead]
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by arminiusreturns on Saturday December 15, 2018 @06:44PM (#18690977)
Hey dang, are comments like this what flies around here these days? You've temp shadowbanned people for much less...

As for gp, when I get to a real keyboard I will give you a proper response. Fair enough on the critique of my terseness.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by dang on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @03:10AM (#18705186)
No, it's not acceptable. I've warned that user in a different context.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by cecilpl2 on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:42PM (#18686717)
The idea is that the public projects increase everyone's wealth by a greater amount than the interest on the debt.

If you take money out of the equation and just consider that we have a large pool of labor to make use of, government's purpose in spending on projects is to allocate some of that labor towards long-term goals that no company would involve itself in as the pure profit potential is too risky, distant, or difficult to capitalize on.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by jondubois on Saturday December 15, 2018 @04:02AM (#18687703)
But it doesn't increase everyone's wealth equally... What's worse is that it doesn't even increase everyone's wealth in a fair way. It does not reward value creation. It rewards rent seeking (value capturing). It's not about who can create value in the most efficient way; it's about which corporation has the most friends in government and can get the biggest contracts.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by novalis78 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @07:53AM (#18688186)
So then debt and IOUs as obligation for some future work that’s due re-introduces a feudal system with fancy language. Suddenly people have to work longer and harder to maintain the same living standards while their wealth gets expropriated and via crony government relationships of particularly well established lobbying industries runs into to pockets of a minority that’s not necessarily engaged in generating true value for the public. Sounds like ‘systemic’ Feudalism.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by spectrum1234 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:34AM (#18687224)
This might be true. However it's fact that poor people lose the most from inflation. Which is better?
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by slededit on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:59AM (#18687415)
The poor don’t have savings. If you spend as much or more than you make inflation benefits you by devaluing the debt you owe.

If you have a large 401k on the other hand it deflates the value of your retirement savings. You may have to work in old age.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by nradov on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:35AM (#18688327)
Inflation generally doesn't hurt the value of stocks in a 401(k). You still own the same percentage of the underlying public corporations. Inflation only hurts your bond holdings. This is one reason why it's best to keep at least some of your retirement fund assets in stocks even as you approach retirement age rather than shifting entirely too bonds.

TIPS also provide a way to hedge against inflation in retirement funds.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by slededit on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:44AM (#18688349)
Inflation does hurt the underlying companies, and thus stocks are not immune.

Except in cases with extremely high inflation most contracts are not inflation adjusted. By the time a company is paid the merchandise sold is worth significantly more in fiat terms. In high inflation an entity is loathe to trade assets for dollars and so the economy will slow.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by nradov on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:59AM (#18688400)
Your point is generally false as long as inflation remains at a reasonable level (no hyperinflation). You can chart out stock market index returns versus inflation if you don't believe me.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by slededit on Saturday December 15, 2018 @09:23AM (#18688476)
I was speaking of relatively high inflation (>10%). The fed has been extremely good at keeping inflation stable so we have not seen this in a long time.

This is not a criticism of current fed policy with respect to its relatively low inflation targets. While the effects I mentioned still occur, they are vastly outweighed by other concerns at low inflation levels.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by Joeri on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:15AM (#18688266)
But the working poor don’t see their hourly wage rise automatically as a consequence of inflation, so unless the government mandates higher minimum wage, or unions negotiate it, or there’s a shortage of low-wage workers driving up wages, their income drops in real terms and they are worse off.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by markvdb on Saturday December 15, 2018 @04:50AM (#18687797)
Both your comment and the parent comment are right. How so?

Two things:

* Poor means less access to more expensive debt. Rich means more access to cheaper debt.

* Rich means one can use debt leverage to grow one's assets. How does that influence the value of necessities for the less rich...?

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by jondubois on Saturday December 15, 2018 @04:13AM (#18687718)
But it also deflates the value of assets that generate monetary profits. If the value of cash goes down, then the value of cash-generating assets also goes down.

When the value of today-money goes down, the value of tomorrow-money goes up relatively. That explains why tech companies and speculative investments do well during expansionary monetary policy. It aslo explains why advertising and brand become so important. Because if the value of money goes up in the future, then the value of each customer will also go up; even if you have to make a net loss today to pay for advertising to get those customers.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by matt4077 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:35AM (#18688326)
Poor people with debt actually profit from inflation. Losers are people with cash savings and equivalent, plus those expecting pensions not indexed to inflation.
Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by jazzyjackson on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:34AM (#18687225)
Reserve banks create money out of debt.

They give a loan to someone, which means someone owes them 10,000 dollars. Now they can trade that 10,000$ worth of debt to someone else. You could say "out of thin air", but its really "out of social expectations that you pay your debt eventually"

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by robertAngst on Saturday December 15, 2018 @06:02AM (#18687951)
>You could say "out of thin air", but its really "out of social expectations that you pay your debt eventually"

You missed that- Since its 'out of thin air', the interest on this debt is artificially low.

When interest rates around 0, things that would otherwise be a bad decision, become feasible. Or, things that are a good idea, are sold and the cronies who get the loans make even more money.

Re:Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person by nonbel on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:24PM (#18686651)
Yep, also keep in mind that the "new money" trickles down. Ie, prices rise faster than wages.