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Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by jstanley on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:04AM (#18680838)
It's not just MIT. The prosecutors are really the ones to blame.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by blitmap on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:16AM (#18681336)
I absolutely blame the prosecutors, but I'd want to include the university in this. Aaron's motives (from my outside perspective) were to make information freely available. It's frustrating that the university is happy to partner with organizations that restrict research papers like this. It's not in the spirit of scholarly work, in my opinion.. I don't know what the university could have done different.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by jjtheblunt on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:09PM (#18682415)
Why does no one have the perspective that Aaron knew he was literally stealing, according to the law, and that subverting the law, even if non ideal, was HIS choice, and therefore the overly dramatic legal threats were invited by HIS actions. It's his fault, and he didn't own up to it, even though he meant well.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by chimeracoder on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:19PM (#18682516)
> literally stealing, according to the law

This is a contested and unsettled legal question. It is not an established fact that what Aaron did would constitute stealing, due to the nuances of this particular situation.

> and that subverting the law, even if non ideal, was HIS choice, and therefore the overly dramatic legal threats were invited by HIS actions

Even if you ignore the fact that MIT has a long, established student culture of civil disobedience and circumventing the law, the level of prosecution was completely disproportionate to what he actually did.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by throwaway2048 on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:09PM (#18683598)
Copyright infringement is unquestionably not theft, this is 100% settled law, it is not ambiguous.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by jjtheblunt on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:00PM (#18686966)
Can you cite a source for that assertion? I can't find one.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by cr0sh on Saturday December 15, 2018 @08:37PM (#18691300)
I don't know a source for the assertion, but I find it interesting and disturbing where things in general seem to be headed.

The legal concept of "theft":

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2119

"the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale)..." (see the link above for more)

So what does it mean to "take"?:

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2088

"to gain or obtain possession, including the receipt of a legacy from an estate, getting title to real property or stealing an object."

...and "possession"?:

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1555

"1) any article, object, asset or property which one owns, occupies, holds or has under control. 2) the act of owning, occupying, holding or having under control an article, object, asset or property." (again - more is available at the link)

Ok - so data can't be occupied, so we can drop that. Holding something implies that something is now in someone's hands and not in another's; data doesn't really work that way either. So - can you "own" or "control" data?

I'm not going further down this rabbit hole, but it seems to me that we have carved out this special exemption for data - or more generally IP - that isn't applied to physical objects. Which is to say that if you make a copy of data that isn't "your's" (whatever that means in a legal sense), that you have now, in some manner, committed theft. You have somehow stolen something from someone else - even though they still have theirs!

Imagine a physical item, and imagine you had a way to copy it. Maybe a wood table, and you are an expert woodworker. You see it, you take some measurements first, plus some photos, maybe a 3D scan? Or you used photogrammetry from the pictures to gain the 3D data. Whatever. Then you go home and make the copy in your workshop. You make an "exact" copy of that table, and the owner (the guy who originally made it - maybe he was selling it, too) learns about it.

Have you just stolen from him? Have you committed theft?

In the real world, if you tried to bring such charges, you might be laughed out of court (unless he had a patent on it, and you were trying to sell that copy - because patent law allows one to make such copies in order to make improvements, but those copies can't be sold or manufactured in quantity).

But when it comes to data - all of a sudden, it's different. With data, the deprivation (even if you are just keeping it for yourself, with no intention of passing it on to someone else!) is considered to be "a loss of sales revenue".

So why not in that case of that table? Or any other potentially manufactured artifact?

The "slippery slope" argument might be the idea that in the future, that yes, if you happen to make an exact copy of a manufactured article (whether manufactured as a singular item or by the millions, whether done by hand or by machines), and regardless of whether you intend to sell it or keep it for your own use - that if caught, you will be deemed as having committed theft; as having stolen something.

I mean - why not? That's what we do with data, so why not physical items?

The next step is, of course, to just define stealing or theft as being the deprivation of sales revenue...but that would be crazy, right?

As crazy as thinking that one could define stealing and theft as being something you do where you don't deprive the original owner of anything...?

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by JohnFen on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:32PM (#18683229)
"Aaron knew he was literally stealing, according to the law"

He was? I may be misremembering, but I don't think that was the crime he was accused of. I believe the crime was bypassing access control systems.

And even that accusation seriously stretched credulity.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by jmalicki on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:40PM (#18685923)
His indictment: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/217117-united-states...

Among other things, he was charged with the heinous crime of modifying his MAC address on his laptop's WiFi so that he could obtain a new IP address.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:03AM (#18687575)
>And even that accusation seriously stretched credulity.

How did that accusation seriously stretch credulity? The technical means may have been simple, but it's unquestionable that he did so intending to circumvent access controls.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by JohnFen on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:45PM (#18708649)
Because he was not engaging in the sort of activity that the law was intended to address.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by Forbo on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:23PM (#18683125)
"Feel free to download and access these documents that we have arranged for you to be able to use."

attaches retrieval requests to a python script

"N-N-NOT LIKE THAT--!!"

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ar_lan on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:05PM (#18682954)
I have this perspective.

They shouldn't have threatened him to the extent they did, I definitely concede, and I wish he didn't feel so pressured to commit suicide - but I'm not convinced he was the perfect person everyone seems to claim.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ashelmire on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:19PM (#18683081)
I think the punishment should fit the crime. If he photocopied every book in the library, how much time do you think he'd face?

Let's say you can prove intent to distribute; I still don't think it's worth any jail time. It's theoretically harmful at best, minor harm to anyone at worst. It's not like a large specific harm (say, stealing someone's car, which has a definite negative impact on them). It's more like... taking all the shrimp at the buffet.

Plus our copyright law is completely fucked anyway and encourages anti competitive behavior (the exact opposite of its intent). On top of that, there's a good bet that 99.99% of the papers involved were the results of taxpayer-funded research.

I don't think he's a saint, but I do think he got a bullshit deal by an overzealous, madwoman prosecutor and university - both of whom rely on federal funding. And everything that was "stolen" was also created with federal funding.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by kakarot on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:09PM (#18682995)
I've willingly broken laws in the past believing they were fully unjust, should I have been driven to suicide as well for that time I pirated a song in eighth grade?
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by joemi on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:52AM (#18687408)
Swartz was not in eighth grade. He was 26 years old. You would not have been tried the same as him. You seem to have pirated a single song, whereas Swartz downloaded over a million articles.

But really, all of those differences don't really matter. The most important difference is: Would you kill yourself instead of going to jail for just 6 months? Maybe you would. I don't know for certain. But if the US's booming prison industry tells me anything, it's that you (like most people) probably wouldn't kill yourself instead of taking a 6 month sentence.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by kakarot on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:22AM (#18687624)
That depends on my situation and whether I felt the sentence was just or administered fairly.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by znpy on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:42PM (#18685937)
> Aaron knew he was literally stealing, according to the law.

I am sorry to be "that guy", but sometimes laws are unfair.

Extreme counter-example: SS officials in nazi Germany were acting according to the then-in-place laws. That does not mean they can thus be exempted from any consequences.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by AsyncAwait on Saturday December 15, 2018 @06:00PM (#18690824)
Slaves were once legal, according to the law.
[dead]
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PavlovsCat on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:44AM (#18681582)
http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartz...

> In short, Aaron Swartz was not the super hacker breathlessly described in the Government’s indictment and forensic reports, and his actions did not pose a real danger to JSTOR, MIT or the public. He was an intelligent young man who found a loophole that would allow him to download a lot of documents quickly. This loophole was created intentionally by MIT and JSTOR, and was codified contractually in the piles of paperwork turned over during discovery.

> If I had taken the stand as planned and had been asked by the prosecutor whether Aaron’s actions were “wrong”, I would probably have replied that what Aaron did would better be described as “inconsiderate”. In the same way it is inconsiderate to write a check at the supermarket while a dozen people queue up behind you or to check out every book at the library needed for a History 101 paper. It is inconsiderate to download lots of files on shared wifi or to spider Wikipedia too quickly, but none of these actions should lead to a young person being hounded for years and haunted by the possibility of a 35 year sentence.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by lucozade on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:01AM (#18681728)
But that's a load of nonsense and I don't think it diminishes Aaron's memory to say so.

He wilfully, deliberately and with substantial premeditation broke the law. Having pretty much stated publicly he was going to and been caught and let off for a similar crime previously. He was bang to rights guilty.

However, he was then persecuted mercilessly and threatened with a sentence way out of proportion to the crime. He was hounded to his death for political brownie points and that's unforgivable.

But to suggest he was just a naughty schoolboy is inaccurate and unhelpful.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by tremon on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:38AM (#18682103)
He wilfully, deliberately and with substantial premeditation broke the law.

So did Rosa Parks, and so did Edward Snowden. That does not mean they automatically deserve what they got.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by lucozade on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:54AM (#18682254)
> That does not mean they automatically deserved what they got

Indeed, and I said the same about Aaron.

Snowden's a different case as he didn't break the law to show up the law.

But it's critical to history that Rosa Parks broke the law. If she had just annoyed a racist bus driver then there's no shining a light on the system. And crucially, that's what Aaron was attempting to do too.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PavlovsCat on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:47PM (#18683389)
> and threatened with a sentence way out of proportion to the crime

What I quoted says nothing more. And what I replied to was "if you can't do the time", implying "the time" was appropriate to the crime.

> to suggest he was just a naughty schoolboy

What in what I quoted suggests that? Can you quote the bits you consider "a load of nonsense"?

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:21AM (#18687619)
>Can you quote the bits you consider "a load of nonsense"?

The article attempts to defend Swartz by essentially claiming that what he did was unimpressive... So what? Same goes for SQL injection. In fact, most crimes are quite unimpressive.

It's indisputable that both JSTOR and MIT actively tried to block Swartz, and that he actively circumvented those blocks.

The article also makes the completely bullshit claim that Swartz could've realistically received a 35 year sentence.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by hedvig on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:30PM (#18682623)
How long would've it taken to download everything? And what size disk would you need to mirror it?
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by trumped on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:33AM (#18681493)
right... a major problem is that we have a lot crazy and stupid laws ... copyright being pretty high up there.
[dead]
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by stochastic_monk on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:48AM (#18681128)
I'm not sure I understand. It reads like you're blaming a suicide victim for dying before he received a verdict instead of the people who put him in that position, but I'd rather not assume your intention.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by Kylekramer on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:23AM (#18681392)
Blaming suicides on people other than the suicidal person is something I also rather not assume people would intend.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by nkrisc on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:14AM (#18681323)
> And he physically broke into an IDF at MIT to do this.

Worse has been done for pranks with little to no consequence.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by RKearney on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:38AM (#18681532)
Somehow the "well Jimmy did it too and he didn't get in trouble!" defense isn't a strong one.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by nkrisc on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:21PM (#18682545)
Not a defense for his actions, but meant as a way to illustrate how disproportionate the response was for what he actually did. I'm working off memory here, so maybe I'm wrong, but from what he was really be pursued for should have been a civil matter at worst.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by gknoy on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:49AM (#18682206)
In the case of _pranks at MIT_, which has a rich history of outrageous pranks, I'd hoped it would have affected their reaction to it, much as one would hope that students wouldn't get arrested for breaking an entering if they did it to assemble a Volkswagen in someone's office.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by FireBeyond on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:33PM (#18682652)
Crucial to note is that Aaron _wasn't_ an MIT student. Most of those "pranks" were students. Aaron was trespassing, though MIT decided they did not want him to be prosecuted.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by awaywopassd on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:25AM (#18681960)
Horrible position to take. He was bullied and bullies deserve to be punished.

Recent suicide of 9 year old because bullying had sparked debate in our office. And most agreed her bullies and parents of bullies should be charged criminally.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PhasmaFelis on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:48AM (#18681126)
> And let’s not forget he killed himself before any kind of sentence was given. For all we know he could have been found innocent.

He was hounded to death by a prosecutor. The fact that the prosecutor lied to him is hardly a defense.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:01AM (#18687569)
It's shocking how many people on HN seem to assume that Swartz was an idiot.

He had good legal representation and it couldn't have been as easy to mislead him as people here keep suggesting.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PhasmaFelis on Saturday December 15, 2018 @05:16PM (#18690672)
So, what, he killed himself to cynically manipulate public opinion?
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Saturday December 15, 2018 @07:36PM (#18691112)
I simply don't find it very realistic that he killed himself over the possibility of spending 6 months in prison.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PhasmaFelis on Sunday December 16, 2018 @01:20AM (#18691999)
He was threatened with prison and then he killed himself. I doubt it was the only factor, but you'll need some sort of compelling evidence to argue that it wasn't the main factor.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Sunday December 16, 2018 @02:14AM (#18692125)
I find the fact that we're talking about 4 or 0-6 months to be very compelling evidence.

What sort of a person kills themselves over 4 months in prison?

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PhasmaFelis on Sunday December 16, 2018 @12:07PM (#18693903)
For starters, your numbers are wrong. At one point he was charged with 13 felonies potentially totaling more than 50 years of prison time. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-go...

And you keep saying he couldn't have hanged himself over these charges. Given that he was threatened with prison time, and shortly after hanged himself, what's your counter-theory? He was murdered by the CIA? He was totally fine with the changes, but he just got real sad all of a sudden? There is no reasonable circumstance where this wasn't the major factor in his suicide.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by ryanlol on Sunday December 16, 2018 @08:40PM (#18696361)
My numbers aren’t wrong. They’re the plea deals he was offered. Two deals, 4 months in prison or 6 months and opportunity to argue for a lower sentence in front of the judge.

You’re the one giving incorrect numbers, he couldn’t possibly have been sentenced to 50 years.

According to his attorneys, the prosecutors believed that the most they could achieve at trial would have been 7 years. A very different number from 50 years.

I suggest you look into the case a little before making statements like this. Techdirt may not be the best source either.

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday December 17, 2018 @08:22PM (#18703826)
He'd already rejected the plea bargain. He was going to stand trial at that point.

> According to his attorneys, the prosecutors believed that the most they could achieve at trial would have been 7 years. A very different number from 50 years.

And a lot more than 6 months.

You still haven't answered my question. If he didn't kill himself because he feared prison, then what happened?

Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by danharaj on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:49AM (#18681138)
Prosecutors gonna prosecute. A university should protect its members. Not anymore though. Universities are part of the behemoth now.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by FireBeyond on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:33PM (#18682656)
Aaron wasn't a student at MIT.
Re:FBI secretly collected data on Aaron Swartz earlier than ... by danharaj on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:35PM (#18684458)
> Elliot Peters, Swartz's attorney, told The Associated Press on Sunday that the case "was horribly overblown" because JSTOR itself believed that Swartz had "the right" to download from the site. Swartz was not formally affiliated with MIT, but was a fellow at nearby Harvard University. MIT maintains an open campus and open computer network, Peters said. He said that made Swartz's accessing the network legal.

I should have used more accurate language. I think my intended statement is clear now.