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Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by vermilingua on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:03AM (#18617653)
This is based on a false premise, that the Govt will ask developers, and that they would care if it is difficult/infeasible/impossible to actually complete.

In reality, they issue a notice to the company, give them a timeframe, and expect it to be done. They don’t care about the intricacies of git.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by cyphar on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:09AM (#18617689)
The law explicitly allows them to target individuals. I don't believe that they gave themselves this power for no reason -- it's much easier to coerce an individual developer (who doesn't have fancy legal council) than force a company to do something. I'm sure they'll do it both ways of course, but I disagree that they'll only target companies.
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by mtarnovan on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:36AM (#18617869)
I also think they would normally approach this top-down. The provision to target individuals might have been added just for the odd case were the normal approach is not feasible.

I still wonder how this law doesn't go against individual rights provided by the Constitution or other fundamental laws.

Either way this law is hilariously clueless and extremely worrying at the same time.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by 3pt14159 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:45AM (#18617955)
That's a mischaracterization. Any type of entity can be targeted, but not any agent. That's an important distinction to stop people acting as private individuals on their own time from being exempt from the law.

Not that I think this will work—it wont in the long run—but I'd rather argue against the strongest case of an argument.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by cyphar on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:49AM (#18617992)
According to Sect 317C, a "designated communications provider" includes:

    A person is a designated communications provider if ...

    6. the person develops, supplies or updates software used, for use, or likely to be used, in connection with:

      (a) a listed carriage service; or
      (b) an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

    ... and the eligible activities of the person are ...

      (a) the development by the person of any such software; or
      (b) the supply by the person of any such software; or
      (c) the updating by the person of any such software
So individuals can definitely be targeted -- it's specifically in the bill. In your parlance, all individuals that "develop, supply, or update software that is likely to be used by an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia" are entities and not agents. They are defined to be a "designated communications provider" and the same rules apply to them as any other "designated communications provider".
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by marcus_holmes on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:34AM (#18618315)
The difference between can and will be is huge.

Look at it from their point of view... they approach some developer and it's amateur hour. The dev might get stroppy, there's all sorts of infrastructure problems, they might not do it right... it's a mess.

But if they approach the CEO, it gets done right. The CEO brings in Legal, who promptly shit themselves. They bring in the CTO, who is told to shut up, sign this NDA, and work out how to make this happen as fast and painlessly as possible. No problems, the bad things get done, no-one gets told anything, all good. Shit continues to roll downhill...

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by celticninja on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:06PM (#18624217)
But now you have a dozen or more people who know what's happening and we all know, three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by marcus_holmes on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:26PM (#18624618)
I'm not sure the point is actually to keep it secret, but (as with all government "services") to cover the arse.

Also, if you were an employee in a company in this situation, and you'd been told that the security of the nation depended on your silence, and more to the point, you'd be locked up and your career ruined if you went public, what would you do? Whistleblowers are pretty rare, because the consequences of doing that are huge.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by alfiedotwtf on Saturday December 08, 2018 @08:28PM (#18638666)
It also applies to former employees. Yes, you can be asked to hack into previous job's systems
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by gmueckl on Thursday December 06, 2018 @11:24AM (#18619367)
Wait... would this also apply to foreign developers who travel to Australia for their vacation?
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by cyphar on Thursday December 06, 2018 @11:48AM (#18619648)
Like any law, it applies to those that Australia has jurisdiction over. Visitors to Australia are under the jurisdiction of Australian law.
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by scottlocklin on Thursday December 06, 2018 @05:59PM (#18623325)
Which means that the developer will be asked to stick a USB stick on a server, or pick a certain RNG; not submit a PR on a dumb backdoor such as described in this ... rant I guess.

Companies, of course, are already cooperating. For petes sake, all you need to do is talk to a couple of admins in the Bay Area to know what alphabet soup are visiting what companies (pro tip: basically all of them).

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by cyphar on Saturday December 08, 2018 @11:49AM (#18636064)
The most likely thing is going to be that Apple is going to be asked to allow police devices to be added to a user's iMessage account without alerting the user (but giving them access to their messages).

The real problem is that the law allows them to ask an individual to become a saboteur and it's unclear if you had a system that was explicitly resilient to such attacks (signed GPLv3 code with a threshold signing scheme with each key owned by people under different jurisdictions) whether you would be forced to dismantle such a system.

I think we'll need to start rethinking threat models.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by pdkl95 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @12:30PM (#18620122)
You're "reality" doesn't match the historical record how FVEY agencies work. Programs like the NSA's BULLRUN[1] or GCHQ's EDGEHILL are well funded ($B/yr) target individuals, companies, standards committees[2], and anything else that serves the purpose of preventing or compromising encryption.

One well documented[2] example where individuals were "tasked" (spy on) directly is the compromise of satellite ISP Stellar:

> The document lists "key staff" at the company. The document states they should be identified and "tasked." "Tasking" somebody in signals intelligence jargon means that they are to be targeted for surveillance. In addition to CEO Christian Steffen, nine other employees are named in the document.

The shock on the IT chief's face[4] when he saw his name in an NSA document...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullrun_%28decryption_program%...

[2] https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg12...

[3] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-documents-...

[4] http://www.spiegel.de/video/chokepoint-the-moment-stellar-le...

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by vermilingua on Thursday December 06, 2018 @05:04PM (#18622773)
I may have phrased it badly, but my point wasn't that they would/could not target individuals, but more that they don't really care about their capacity as developers; more that these people are simply government implants in the target org, and that whether they are unable to provide the capability through ordinary channels is simply irrelevant.

If the Govt strongarms a developer into implanting a backdoor, they won't care that they can't do it without breaking company policy or QA or workflow or even the law, because they cease to be primarily an employee, and become an asset of ASIO.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by alfiedotwtf on Saturday December 08, 2018 @08:57PM (#18638766)
This is why I'm choosing to stick to the term commandeering
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by cylinder on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:06AM (#18617673)
Yeah you just go to the CEO or legal counsel, threaten loss of licenses, seizure of personal assets
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by alfiedotwtf on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:09AM (#18617690)
CEO or legal counsel? They can directly compel current and former individual employees:

https://twitter.com/alfiedotwtf/status/1070658693409079296

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by brokenmachine on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:31AM (#18617830)
Former employees? So you can't even resign? WTF?
Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by mabbo on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:06AM (#18617671)
But the problem remains the same: how do you keep it a secret? How does the backdoor not get leaked immediately to the press, to the customers of the software, etc?

Sure, this strategy may work in China but Australia is a Western nation where freedom is taken seriously.

Edit later: by 'freedom taken seriously I mean by the people, not by the government.'

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by hvklos on Thursday December 06, 2018 @02:28PM (#18621228)
Sure, this strategy may work in China but Australia is a Western nation where freedom is taken seriously.

That’s the carefully cultivated reality distortion field at work.

It may look that way from the outside, but it’s a tightly controlled, aging and fearful society. Anyone who steps out of line is dealt with harshly and swiftly. The government may loosen the leash on those who align with their political philosophy (so figures who vilify vulnerable groups are given a bit of freedom under the current government) but the jackboot of the state isn’t far away.

Re your edit: there is compulsory voting, so the people obviously like it that way.

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by vermilingua on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:18AM (#18617729)
> where freedom is taken seriously.

Ahahahahahahaha

Re:Commandeering Australian citizens to become spies by brokenmachine on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:30AM (#18617822)
>Australia is a Western nation where freedom is taken seriously.

Oh, you sweet summer child.